how bad did i mess this up?

[jonsan 0]

I will preface this by saying that I consider myself a fish at this point. I am playing $10 buy-in NLHE on Pacific with bonus money, and $.02/$.04 LHE on PStars. At this point I am just trying to learn the game, especially post-flop, and determine if I can play poker in the long term and at least break even..05/.10 $10 buy-in NLHE on Pacific9 players, I am UTG+3, I get (AKh).UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, I raise it to $0.40, 5 people called.Flop came down (Js Qh 6d), $2.35 in the pot.I figure this isn't too bad. I have 6 outs for an over-pair, 4 outs for a straight, and if the turn is a heart I have a nut flush draw.BB checks, I check (mistake?), the CutOff bets $.80.I think the BB is on a straight draw (maybe back-door flush), and the CO flopped a pair.BB calls, I call, pot is $4.65.Turn comes (Jd), BB checks, I check, CO bets $1.60.I put the CO on a Q or a 6 when he bet $1.60. Based on his betting in previous hands I think he would have bet more with 2-pair, a set, or a bluff. I figure I have 10 outs, I can see 6 cards, and I know CO has Q or 6, so that gives me 10/45.BB calls, I call, pot is $9.20.River comes (5s), BB checks, I check, CO checks.BB shows (Kc10s), CO shows (Qd9s), CO wins with his two Queens.I was upset with myself on this hand because I felt I played it way too weak. If I wasn’t going to show some strength, I should have folded after the flop. I didn’t feel comfortable betting on the turn because the J on the turn may have made a set for the CO. Should I have bet there and seen if he raised? At the very least, I think I should have raised his turn bet, or made a large bet on the river. If CO had bet on the River (which I think he should have), should I have folded? Like I said above, I am still in the early stage of learning the game. Anyone care to help?Thanks!Jon

[jsull 0]

i'm also a fish, and this is probably really wrong, but in NL, if I've been the pre-flop raiser with big slick and I get three undercards, I bet the flop as to represent an overpair. Often everybody folds.

[JistTheFist 0]

you should have folded this on the turn....the 2nd jack makes it even more likely that you are beat. if someone is holding a jack the only card that would win you this pot is a 10... and that's only if the player wasn't holding J10 which is a very common holding in hold'em....if you had bet the only way you're going to get called is if you're beat... and on that turn you're VERY likely to be beat, someone will be holding either a straight draw, a flush draw, or at least a pair and they're not going to fold on that turn... AK is a nice looking hand, but when the board looks like that... its time to let it go.

[JistTheFist 0]

i'm also a fish, and this is probably really wrong, but in NL, if I've been the pre-flop raiser with big slick and I get three undercards, I bet the flop as to represent an overpair. Often everybody folds.

there is a difference between three undercards and a board with a J and a Q on it... betting there would be bleeding money... especially with 5 callers preflop... I see someone with QJ here often smoke you.

[jonsan 0]

you should have folded this on the turn....the 2nd jack makes it even more likely that you are beat. if someone is holding a jack the only card that would win you this pot is a 10... and that's only if the player wasn't holding J10 which is a very common holding in hold'em....if you had bet the only way you're going to get called is if you're beat... and on that turn you're VERY likely to be beat, someone will be holding either a straight draw, a flush draw, or at least a pair and they're not going to fold on that turn... AK is a nice looking hand, but when the board looks like that... its time to let it go.

After the betting on the flop, I thought that BB was on a draw and CO had one pair. Should I be trusting these kinds of reads? I understand why you say to fold, and I strongly considered it, but with 10 (perceived) outs, it seemed like a good play to put $0.80 into a $3.95 pot. Am I way off base there?Jon

[budfox427 0]

If it was me, I would have bet on the flop, because by checking I don't think you picked up much information. If you throw out a pot sized bet, and the guy is on a draw and isn't a complete fish, there is a good chance he folds. Then you could get away from the hand on the turn if he calls and you don't improve or you could fold right there if he raises.

[jsull 0]

i'm also a fish, and this is probably really wrong, but in NL, if I've been the pre-flop raiser with big slick and I get three undercards, I bet the flop as to represent an overpair. Often everybody folds.

there is a difference between three undercards and a board with a J and a Q on it... betting there would be bleeding money... especially with 5 callers preflop... I see someone with QJ here often smoke you.

In this situation I can understand that. I too have a hard time throwing away big slick.Let me ask then, what about if there was just one face card, not two?

[JistTheFist 0]

i'm also a fish, and this is probably really wrong, but in NL, if I've been the pre-flop raiser with big slick and I get three undercards, I bet the flop as to represent an overpair. Often everybody folds.

there is a difference between three undercards and a board with a J and a Q on it... betting there would be bleeding money... especially with 5 callers preflop... I see someone with QJ here often smoke you.

In this situation I can understand that. I too have a hard time throwing away big slick.Let me ask then, what about if there was just one face card, not two?

if there is only one face card I might put a bet out there, but the problem with this is that if he just calls you, you really still have no information about his hand... this is why position in hold'em is so important... if he only calls you here, you have no idea if he is on a draw, if he has a hand, or if he is just one of those guys that will call you with 67, suited for no straight or flush draw.... but let's look at every situation... and what will probably happen...1. if he is on a draw, and the turn card does not help out the draw... you will probably want to bet again, to try and get him off his draw... but you have to have a VERY good read... cuz if he is on a hand, he will continue to bleed money out of you.... So, if you check the turn cuz you're out of position this gives him a great opportunity to steal it on a draw, or to just push you off of your hand...2. if he already has a hand, but still just calls, you still have no read about his strength... he might be on AQ, or on Q7.... so if an ace falls on the turn you think "awesome, now I've got this" but really he's just gonna break you with his two pair.I think the best way to play this when only one face card somes, and there is no straight or flush possibility would be to bet the flop, and if you're called check-fold the turn if you don't improve...but on a coordinated flop, just let it go.you see in No-Limit I don't think so much about the hands that will make me the most money, I think about the hands that will get me in the most trouble.

[seli 0]

betting on the flop would have been a mistake, with 5 other players in the hand youre probably beat because the flop had to have hit one of your opponents.betting with unimproved AK on flop is usually good against 1 or 2 opponents but not anymore then that.

[custom36 5]

If you bet before the flop and it's checked to you, bet the turn. You should win a number of small pots this way. I agree though with folding on the turn.

[jsull 0]

thank you Jist, that was very helpful! :clap: