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Yeah Me! Thanks For The Help! Question Again. $3.30 Rebuy Turbo 180 Man


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First off, I want to give thanks again to you guys!!! I just started playing 180 man $3 rebuy for a week or two, and only played about 12 of them or so, and tonight came in 2nd for $342!! My biggest poker cash yet. Studying the SNG wizard and reading here and posting has helped out alot. BUT, I was chip leader for the most part when it got down to 30 people and less. I tried to keep it together, but since I have not been this deep (was here once before top 10, but squeaked in) and don't have much experience here, I felt lost at times and overmatched, but I guess I did o.k. to make 2nd. Probably lost value alot, but whatever. I can build off this and hopefully hit a few more this weekend. Anyway, here is a hand I came across and felt a little lost. Villain was pretty aggressive stealing constantly, but not shoving. I was playing a bit tight, so I would shove against him PF when I had a strong hand and he would lay it down. But here, I felt like 2:1 was too much gamble here. There was about 12 or so players left, so right outside of the final table. Thoughts??feral_cow_icon.gifMilked from the teat of a feral cowPokerStars No-Limit Hold'em ($3.00+$0.30) t3000/t6000 ante t600 - 5 playersSB: t112,874 BB: t227,525 (Hero)UTG: t33,356 CO: t141,019 Button: t18,976 Preflop: (t12,000) Hero is BB with :club::ts (5 players)3 folds, SB raises to t112274 and is all-in, Hero foldsSB collected t15000

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fold

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Is there a range here you would consider calling?? Villain was stealing, but not risking alot 2x-3x BB mostly. When he is open shoving on me here after I have 3-bet shoved him in the past and made him fold, does he have like AA KK here??
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He might also have a read on you as a weak player or he just can't stop his aggression. I have a very close friend named Jennifear (aka Punkinbear) that teaches lessons. Her quote is Make Good Decisions, Fu*k the Result. You can ONLY make a good decision here. If you range him in the ATC and know you are a favorite anywhere in the 70%+ range, you can always play back. In this case, I would have folded and picked a better hand to play back at them. I always prefer to shove first and not call.

Is there a range here you would consider calling?? Villain was stealing, but not risking alot 2x-3x BB mostly. When he is open shoving on me here after I have 3-bet shoved him in the past and made him fold, does he have like AA KK here??
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fistpump snapcallEven though villain here has a lot of chips and is going to be folding tighter than normal, he's still getting in any ace, any pair, most Kx, Q9s+ etc.I also think you can discount TT+ a lot because they'd be limping or minraising or doing something funky to try and get more valuewith 12 left in a normal turbo where you're not so absurdly deep all the time (the 3k/6k blind level is normally reserved for HU play) I'd be snapping off like 44+, A4+ etc. (and I probably call A2, 22 etc. too but not as quickly). In this spot I'd guess a decent range would be 88+, AT+, KQ, KJs

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fistpump snapcall
plus with the description i think villian is weak. if he actually had a hand he should be playing it the same as his weak ones with the 2-3x raises knowing your response would be to raise.no way we can fold putting villian on a higher range.
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Good info. Thanks. It is tough when you are not used to playing with such a huge lead this deep. Usually I am squeaking in and shoving, but thought process is different, and I did not want to be a spewtard and waste such a good lead. I am going to try to review tonight and post a few other spots tonight to see what you guys think. Here I just thought risking 2:1 was a little risky. 3:1 or better I would have done it, but I know he was stealing alot, but don't remember what he was going to showdown with. Still trying to get better at ranges. Getting better, just need to keep working at it.

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duuuuudddeeeee, i just wrote a long post about why you need to fold q9 here, but you have 99. sshhhiiiyyyyyyyyyyttttttt, sorry i need to stop posting at 1 am local time! snap call!

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duuuuudddeeeee, i just wrote a long post about why you need to fold q9 here, but you have 99. sshhhiiiyyyyyyyyyyttttttt, sorry i need to stop posting at 1 am local time! snap call!
LOL! I wondered about that after the other 2 posts about snap calls. I see know that I was being scared about risking the $$$, but I understand about if he did have something big, he would have played me the same way and suckered me in to shoving, then flip over the monster. I guess he knew if he open shoved, I would insta fold, and if he 2x-3x me again there could be the chance I would shove on him again and I guess he was tired of me doing this to him.
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fistpump snapcallEven though villain here has a lot of chips and is going to be folding tighter than normal, he's still getting in any ace, any pair, most Kx, Q9s+ etc.I also think you can discount TT+ a lot because they'd be limping or minraising or doing something funky to try and get more valuewith 12 left in a normal turbo where you're not so absurdly deep all the time (the 3k/6k blind level is normally reserved for HU play) I'd be snapping off like 44+, A4+ etc. (and I probably call A2, 22 etc. too but not as quickly). In this spot I'd guess a decent range would be 88+, AT+, KQ, KJs
good post, /thread
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LOL! I wondered about that after the other 2 posts about snap calls. I see know that I was being scared about risking the $$$, but I understand about if he did have something big, he would have played me the same way and suckered me in to shoving, then flip over the monster. I guess he knew if he open shoved, I would insta fold, and if he 2x-3x me again there could be the chance I would shove on him again and I guess he was tired of me doing this to him.
yah i was all ready to defend why q9 should be a fold here too! :club: had like 2 long paragraphs and poker stove results. lol! fail on my part!
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yah i was all ready to defend why q9 should be a fold here too! :club: had like 2 long paragraphs and poker stove results. lol! fail on my part!
Haha, when i read your post saying fold, i was like WTF, lol
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I reread this post and still feel you could have made either play (fold to stay in the tourney or call with intention of winning against someone that might have less than the nuts). Last night I put up my post after making a very poor play HU in the Negreanu Open against Mr. Sparco. I had a 5 to 1 chip lead going heads up against him, got in with the best of it against him 3 times and got outdrawn each time. Then I battled back to even stacks and made a really bone headed play where I made a call with middle pair against him flopping two pair. Although the situation wasn't quite the same I did make some of these plays against people that had PP against my hands like AQ or KQ suited. I ran down most of these people and that was where my head was as a big stack vs the smaller stacks. I only give this back story because I went back and started analyzing my play and what i could have changed, but also I wanted examples to related back to you had I been the villian. You had the shoe on the other foot, but you also were the person with the read on the guy. How strong do you feel he was and where did you range him? This will better answer your question.

Haha, when i read your post saying fold, i was like WTF, lol
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I reread this post and still feel you could have made either play (fold to stay in the tourney or call with intention of winning against someone that might have less than the nuts). Last night I put up my post after making a very poor play HU in the Negreanu Open against Mr. Sparco. I had a 5 to 1 chip lead going heads up against him, got in with the best of it against him 3 times and got outdrawn each time. Then I battled back to even stacks and made a really bone headed play where I made a call with middle pair against him flopping two pair. Although the situation wasn't quite the same I did make some of these plays against people that had PP against my hands like AQ or KQ suited. I ran down most of these people and that was where my head was as a big stack vs the smaller stacks. I only give this back story because I went back and started analyzing my play and what i could have changed, but also I wanted examples to related back to you had I been the villian. You had the shoe on the other foot, but you also were the person with the read on the guy. How strong do you feel he was and where did you range him? This will better answer your question.
Basically I was ecstatic because I had this many chips ITM and close to the final table. You have to remember I am piss-poor player and I have a bad habit of spewing in spots I shouldn't be, and I am still trying to work on my hand range for players and remembering what they are showing down with, tendencies, etc. I knew he was stealing alot, but I was worried was this a spot to risk 2:1 at. PT had a VP of 36 on him over about 35 hands or so, when everyone else over that sample was about 20. I was really worried he could have anything here, since that was the first time he made the open shove. Now I know that unless they are a much tighter player, then calling 2:1 would be the correct play here. BUT being cautious I was able to luck-up on second, even after I went on a bad run of cards I just blinded down and waited for the short stacks at the FT to go bust. BUT, if I made this call and hopefully won a flip situation and wasn't crushed, I would have had a 5-1 lead over 2nd place going into the final table, so I could have made life a little easier for myself. OIhh well. Just like anything else. The more experience you have, the better you should be.
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The major flaw I see in most conversation and advice online is that they don't know EVERYTHING you have experienced up to this point with the person. I can say that if I were at the table with you and you made the same play you would have a huge premium hand. Always pay attention to your opponents and put yourself in their shoes based on the sample of what they have shown down and how they have played it. If you based your decision on nothing but math then you miss out on the a few fundamentals of poker:1. playing the player.2. putting together the incomplete information to have it make sense. The more you play the sharper your "poker instincts" will become. You have to first change your mindset calling yourself a "piss-poor player". You are simply someone that has the drive and desire to be better, but you are where you are. Remember, you can control what goes on in your head so do so. Do not allow others to do that. You earned your way into the 2nd spot by playing smart. We just need to start tweaking your confidence and your mind to stop playing "not to bust out" and start "playing to win"! You do remember when we got down to the bubble area of the tourney last night and you got wrapped up in a hand with Sparco? You made it obvious by your chat that you were not confident in playing your hand the way you did. That is the first thing that has to stop. Honestly, I picked on you a couple of times after that knowing you wouldn't protect your blinds unless you had a qualified hand to do so and if you didn't hit even with your range that I could get you to fold with pressure on a later street. I tell you this to not to beat you up, but so you will be a threat on the tables.Your goal for the rest of the month... be the guy that people have to play against, not the guy that people want to play at.

Basically I was ecstatic because I had this many chips ITM and close to the final table. You have to remember I am piss-poor player and I have a bad habit of spewing in spots I shouldn't be, and I am still trying to work on my hand range for players and remembering what they are showing down with, tendencies, etc. I knew he was stealing alot, but I was worried was this a spot to risk 2:1 at. PT had a VP of 36 on him over about 35 hands or so, when everyone else over that sample was about 20. I was really worried he could have anything here, since that was the first time he made the open shove. Now I know that unless they are a much tighter player, then calling 2:1 would be the correct play here. BUT being cautious I was able to luck-up on second, even after I went on a bad run of cards I just blinded down and waited for the short stacks at the FT to go bust. BUT, if I made this call and hopefully won a flip situation and wasn't crushed, I would have had a 5-1 lead over 2nd place going into the final table, so I could have made life a little easier for myself. OIhh well. Just like anything else. The more experience you have, the better you should be.
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Shaggy, I think it's important to realize that BvB, most people have ranges that are a LOT wider than in earlier positions. This is especially important in the later stages of tournaments, when stacks are short and the preflop value of your hand is such a big factor in its outcome.Example: in the Neg-O yesterday, we played a hand BvB where I raised from the SB preflop (I don't remember exact stacks, but we both had 20BB or so), and you flatted. I c-bet on a QJx flop, and you tank-folded what you said was KJ.Of course, I don't know if that is really what you had, but if it was, then you are probably ahead more than enough enough against my range (and I'm a nit) to 3-bet pre-flop. And on the flop, you should definitely be willing to get it in with that hand. (In this case, I had A9o.)Edit: Heh, I'm a slow typer. I'm guessing this is the hand Tiburon is referring to above. :club:

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If you based your decision on nothing but math then you miss out on the a few fundamentals of poker:1. playing the player.2. putting together the incomplete information to have it make sense.
If you don't incorporate those things in your math, you miss out on a few fundamentals of math. :club:(Sorry, it is clear what you mean, but this is a pet peeve of mine. It's not "math or feel", as is so often said in endless discussions. You need the feel to do the correct math. If your feel somehow makes you 100% sure a player can only have AA, then simply do the math with only AA in his range.)
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The major flaw I see in most conversation and advice online is that they don't know EVERYTHING you have experienced up to this point with the person. I can say that if I were at the table with you and you made the same play you would have a huge premium hand. Always pay attention to your opponents and put yourself in their shoes based on the sample of what they have shown down and how they have played it. If you based your decision on nothing but math then you miss out on the a few fundamentals of poker:1. playing the player.2. putting together the incomplete information to have it make sense. The more you play the sharper your "poker instincts" will become. You have to first change your mindset calling yourself a "piss-poor player". You are simply someone that has the drive and desire to be better, but you are where you are. Remember, you can control what goes on in your head so do so. Do not allow others to do that. You earned your way into the 2nd spot by playing smart. We just need to start tweaking your confidence and your mind to stop playing "not to bust out" and start "playing to win"! You do remember when we got down to the bubble area of the tourney last night and you got wrapped up in a hand with Sparco? You made it obvious by your chat that you were not confident in playing your hand the way you did. That is the first thing that has to stop. Honestly, I picked on you a couple of times after that knowing you wouldn't protect your blinds unless you had a qualified hand to do so and if you didn't hit even with your range that I could get you to fold with pressure on a later street. I tell you this to not to beat you up, but so you will be a threat on the tables.Your goal for the rest of the month... be the guy that people have to play against, not the guy that people want to play at.
You must be a motivational speaker :club: Good advice. I like the Neg-O because it gives me a chance to play with people that are at a higher level than me. I have only been seriously playing for 6 months, but have dabbled here and there with it for 10 years. I still have alot to learn. I mostly play a few hours a night on .25 NL and $3 -$10 single table SNG, and recently feel like I can move up to MTTs. I joke around with my bad play, because I really feel like I am not a bad player, but one that is still learning and just makes rookie mistakes, but I have an open mind and an eagerness to learn. I have played every Neg-O (minus one) for the past 3 months and I enjoy them because unless you spend a ton of money, you cannot sit in on another table with experienced players anywhere else. I have learned alot by watching and trying to put players on ranges week after week. My game is seriosly lacking hand range/player ranges. You could have picked on me all night, and I might have caught on, might not. That is one aspect I am learning now but just needs more time/experience.
You do remember when we got down to the bubble area of the tourney last night and you got wrapped up in a hand with Sparco? You made it obvious by your chat that you were not confident in playing your hand the way you did. That is the first thing that has to stop. Honestly, I picked on you a couple of times after that knowing you wouldn't protect your blinds unless you had a qualified hand to do so and if you didn't hit even with your range that I could get you to fold with pressure on a later street. I tell you this to not to beat you up, but so you will be a threat on the tables.
See, by me playing around, you taught me a good pointer on how to play when you pick up on weak players. I can go back and look at the replayer video of it and see if I can pick up on that , then learn from there. Unfortunatly, I do not know anyone local that plays, so the only strat discussions is just on the internet, and it is hard to type everything you want to say/discuss, or read and ask questions so the learning curve takes a little longer.MR. Sparco
Shaggy, I think it's important to realize that BvB, most people have ranges that are a LOT wider than in earlier positions. This is especially important in the later stages of tournaments, when stacks are short and the preflop value of your hand is such a big factor in its outcome.Example: in the Neg-O yesterday, we played a hand BvB where I raised from the SB preflop (I don't remember exact stacks, but we both had 20BB or so), and you flatted. I c-bet on a QJx flop, and you tank-folded what you said was KJ.Of course, I don't know if that is really what you had, but if it was, then you are probably ahead more than enough enough against my range (and I'm a nit) to 3-bet pre-flop. And on the flop, you should definitely be willing to get it in with that hand. (In this case, I had A9o.)Edit: Heh, I'm a slow typer. I'm guessing this is the hand Tiburon is referring to above.
Yes, it was KJ I folded. I did not pay attention that it was BvB, and was thinking I did not want to risk playing middle pair. If I am unsure of something or get lost in a hand, I started to clam up, instead of my old ways which was get spewey. Also, it is not everyday you get to play hands HU against a WSOP bracelet winner :ts It is a little intimidating :4h Basically, I need to pay attention to BvB play alot more and practice that. Thanks for all the helpful info!!!
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This is the hand I was referring too. Sparco, thank you for the heads up match.

Shaggy, I think it's important to realize that BvB, most people have ranges that are a LOT wider than in earlier positions. This is especially important in the later stages of tournaments, when stacks are short and the preflop value of your hand is such a big factor in its outcome.Example: in the Neg-O yesterday, we played a hand BvB where I raised from the SB preflop (I don't remember exact stacks, but we both had 20BB or so), and you flatted. I c-bet on a QJx flop, and you tank-folded what you said was KJ.Of course, I don't know if that is really what you had, but if it was, then you are probably ahead more than enough enough against my range (and I'm a nit) to 3-bet pre-flop. And on the flop, you should definitely be willing to get it in with that hand. (In this case, I had A9o.)Edit: Heh, I'm a slow typer. I'm guessing this is the hand Tiburon is referring to above. :club:
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I am a motivational speaker, life coach and personal training studio owner. Poker is really about mindset. I know this on BOTH sides of the spectrum!

You must be a motivational speaker :club: Good advice. I like the Neg-O because it gives me a chance to play with people that are at a higher level than me. I have only been seriously playing for 6 months, but have dabbled here and there with it for 10 years. I still have alot to learn. I mostly play a few hours a night on .25 NL and $3 -$10 single table SNG, and recently feel like I can move up to MTTs. I joke around with my bad play, because I really feel like I am not a bad player, but one that is still learning and just makes rookie mistakes, but I have an open mind and an eagerness to learn. I have played every Neg-O (minus one) for the past 3 months and I enjoy them because unless you spend a ton of money, you cannot sit in on another table with experienced players anywhere else. I have learned alot by watching and trying to put players on ranges week after week. My game is seriosly lacking hand range/player ranges. You could have picked on me all night, and I might have caught on, might not. That is one aspect I am learning now but just needs more time/experience.See, by me playing around, you taught me a good pointer on how to play when you pick up on weak players. I can go back and look at the replayer video of it and see if I can pick up on that , then learn from there. Unfortunatly, I do not know anyone local that plays, so the only strat discussions is just on the internet, and it is hard to type everything you want to say/discuss, or read and ask questions so the learning curve takes a little longer.MR. SparcoYes, it was KJ I folded. I did not pay attention that it was BvB, and was thinking I did not want to risk playing middle pair. If I am unsure of something or get lost in a hand, I started to clam up, instead of my old ways which was get spewey. Also, it is not everyday you get to play hands HU against a WSOP bracelet winner :ts It is a little intimidating :4h Basically, I need to pay attention to BvB play alot more and practice that. Thanks for all the helpful info!!!
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This really is a chicken or the egg conversation. I've watched math guys get pushed off of pot after pot simply due to people just screwing around with pot odds on their betting. I've also watched someone make a great read and get sucked out on. Experience while combining the essential skills of being a poker player are all relevant. Great comback though!

If you don't incorporate those things in your math, you miss out on a few fundamentals of math. :club:(Sorry, it is clear what you mean, but this is a pet peeve of mine. It's not "math or feel", as is so often said in endless discussions. You need the feel to do the correct math. If your feel somehow makes you 100% sure a player can only have AA, then simply do the math with only AA in his range.)
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i think bc of the buyin level, $3.30, we cant let our selves get away from the math. this is a call. yes i could find a fold mmmaaayybbbeee if villain had been super nitty, but thats like 5% the time overall. in general, we are so far ahead of his range. and the added value of winning this massive of a pot going into the FT is massive. give us a huge stack and the ability to either (depending on how the table is playing) 1.) open a ton of pots on the FT bubble and steal like mad, or 2.) just sit and let the shorties open shove until they run into hands. That added value of being uneffected by blinds and antes for a good 2 levels unless you happen to get coolered or loose a race or 3 is huuggeee!

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i think bc of the buyin level, $3.30, we cant let our selves get away from the math. this is a call. yes i could find a fold mmmaaayybbbeee if villain had been super nitty, but thats like 5% the time overall. in general, we are so far ahead of his range. and the added value of winning this massive of a pot going into the FT is massive. give us a huge stack and the ability to either (depending on how the table is playing) 1.) open a ton of pots on the FT bubble and steal like mad, or 2.) just sit and let the shorties open shove until they run into hands. That added value of being uneffected by blinds and antes for a good 2 levels unless you happen to get coolered or loose a race or 3 is huuggeee!
That's kinda what happened already. I had a massive lead and everybody at the FT was loose as hell, and I got card dead so I just sat back and let them knock each other out. BUT if I would have had an extra 100k in chips, then when we got HU I would have possibly been the leader, instead of down 3-1 at HU. I did another one last night but the players were alot tighter, and I had a good lead, but lost a flip or two and got crushed on a steal attempt. Still made it ITM at 17th though.
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