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Satan. Created By God Perfect And Good Or Evil?


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Satan. Created by God perfect and good or evil?God created sin, evil and iniquity along with all things.Ephesians 3:8-10 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:Deuteronomy 32:4He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.Matthew 7:18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.Ezekiel 28:15 (King James Version)15Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.-------------------------There seems to be something wrong with the logic of these verses. Was God surprised to find what He had created?We are told that perfection begets perfection in a never ending line in Math 7 18, yet imperfection in the form of iniquity surfaced in Satan. It must have been put there by God Himself if Eph 3 8 is to be believed.God is said to have somehow found it but as the creator of all things, He must have created it and placed it within Satan. Presumably to surface and have God find it. It could not have been lost to God so why the Bible uses the word found is perplexing.We have to believe then that Satan was created exactly as he was meant to be. Perfect as God is only capable of, yet, having evil, sin and iniquity as part of his perfection.If so, it seems strange that God is later said in scripture to cast Satan into hell. Matthew 25:41 (Jesus speaking):Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.If God gave Satan his nature and Satan followed His God given nature, as he must, then why would God curse His perfect creation seeing as how perfection cannot change to imperfection?If it can and God is also perfect then that would mean that God could also turn to imperfection.

For either God or Satan.Can you shed some light on this issue?You should know that I do not have much of a problem with the above because I think more as the Hebrews and Jews think. That being that Satan was never evil and was more of God’s Loyal opposition and that Genesis was not the fall of man but man’s ascension to having a moral sense that comes with the knowledge of good and evil.http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_sat2.htm RegardsDL
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So it isn't possible that God made something and gave it the ability to do something against what God wanted it to do.Therefore you are a 100% slave and nothing you ever do will be from your own choice.I think there might be a flaw in this conclusion also.Or maybe I am supposed to think that...

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So it isn't possible that God made something and gave it the ability to do something against what God wanted it to do.Therefore you are a 100% slave and nothing you ever do will be from your own choice.I think there might be a flaw in this conclusion also.Or maybe I am supposed to think that...
I honestly admire your persistance to keep disproving his ridiculous statements, but I'm affraid that he will only keep coming back this way. It's like a little child you need to ignore for the bad behavior to stop.
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I honestly admire your persistance to keep disproving his ridiculous statements, but I'm affraid that he will only keep coming back this way. It's like a little child you need to ignore for the bad behavior to stop.
Yea, but I'm used to people being incredibly illogical in their disdain of Christianity, so he's just one of the herd.If anything his poorly thought out ideas are better articulated than most.
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I wonder if technically it could still happen? Meaning, Satan was an Angel at one point, with the freedom to choose to be whatever he wanted. I don't follow The Bible a whole lot but I don't remember ever being told that Angels couldn't still go Apeshit again, if they wanted too. I wonder if, within Gods plan, is there room for other contingencies? Like, a whole alternate reality that still conforms with this plan but because of free will other things are going on as well. Is it possible that right now Angels are defecting, but it doesn't matter because, well, it's not like a place needs to be created for them? Also, I am inclined to think that perfection is the ability for both good an evil and the subsequent shunning of evil and doing good. I don't see how perfection can be attained without a force pushing against ones own will to do good.

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I wonder if technically it could still happen? Meaning, Satan was an Angel at one point, with the freedom to choose to be whatever he wanted. I don't follow The Bible a whole lot but I don't remember ever being told that Angels couldn't still go Apeshit again, if they wanted too. I wonder if, within Gods plan, is there room for other contingencies? Like, a whole alternate reality that still conforms with this plan but because of free will other things are going on as well. Is it possible that right now Angels are defecting, but it doesn't matter because, well, it's not like a place needs to be created for them? Also, I am inclined to think that perfection is the ability for both good an evil and the subsequent shunning of evil and doing good. I don't see how perfection can be attained without a force pushing against ones own will to do good.
There are better spots than this thread to engage in discussions such as this. I didn't even read your post.You are simply baiting greatestiam to continue posting. BG at least discounts everything the guy posts in an attempt to quiet the noise, you seem to actively engage someone who is quite obvious a troll and nothing more. Stop it.I'm not sure if you understand that or not.
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So it isn't possible that God made something and gave it the ability to do something against what God wanted it to do.Therefore you are a 100% slave and nothing you ever do will be from your own choice.I think there might be a flaw in this conclusion also.Or maybe I am supposed to think that...
Would a farmer put a fox in his henhouse full of hens.Hmm. hard one.Not.RegardsDL
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Yea, but I'm used to people being incredibly illogical in their disdain of Christianity, so he's just one of the herd.If anything his poorly thought out ideas are better articulated than most.
Illogical!This from one who believes in talking animals.Now that hurts. Not.If you see a flaw in my logic trail, why not show it?RegardsDL
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I wonder if technically it could still happen? Meaning, Satan was an Angel at one point, with the freedom to choose to be whatever he wanted. I don't follow The Bible a whole lot but I don't remember ever being told that Angels couldn't still go Apeshit again, if they wanted too. I wonder if, within Gods plan, is there room for other contingencies? Like, a whole alternate reality that still conforms with this plan but because of free will other things are going on as well. Is it possible that right now Angels are defecting, but it doesn't matter because, well, it's not like a place needs to be created for them? Also, I am inclined to think that perfection is the ability for both good an evil and the subsequent shunning of evil and doing good. I don't see how perfection can be attained without a force pushing against ones own will to do good.
I think you've got it.Most live it without realizing it.Believers tend to not see it because they see way more evil in the world than good but logic says that the human world is progressing quite nicely as way more people do good than evil.Christians just think that some good things are evil and get a bias view.They also lack faith in their own god's ability to get things right.I let them know how wrong they are with this. They don't get it but you might. Is God and His works perfect.The way many Christian see God is to see Him screwing up heaven with evil. Strike one.They then see God screwing up man's beginning in Eden.Strike two.They then see God cleaning house in Noah's day with Genocide and starting over.Strike three.They now wait for His return at end time to clean house yet again.Strike four.Strike four?God plays by His own rules I guess.You and I both know that this view must be false if God‘s works are as perfect as scripture indicates.To my way of thinking, God gets things right the first time and every time.This is why He has not and will not return. His perfect systems are here today the same way that they were here in the beginning. He judged Eden as good. It is just to us to see it. I do. Even with sin and evil and woes, all is perfect and humming along exactly as God wants it to. I call it evolving perfection.Did your version of God get it right or does He need to return to fix things?RegardsDL
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Illogical!This from one who believes in talking animals.Now that hurts. Not.RegardsDL
So you are saying that God who made all the universe with His spoken word..would be unable to have an animal talk.Because?
If you see a flaw in my logic trail, why not show it?
Calling it a logic trail is misleading. You are really just throwing any random idea that has little if any thought behind it and seeing if it holds water.There is no trail of logic you are pursuing.A logic trail would have come to a cliff where you would see why your conclusions are constantly tainted with biased blindness, but instead you only ignore logic trail and continue down the cliff of prejudicial ignorance.But what can you expect from a person who is arrogant enough to believe that he has found a loophole in the story in the Bible of man's original sin and now declares that that sin was in fact a good idea?Even a cursory effort should show you why the sin that Adam and Eve did that caused all the pain and suffering in the world was not a positive for mankind, yet you are now championing the very words of the devil as ultimate truth.Think about that for 2 seconds before you respond.2 whole seconds.
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I think you've got it.Most live it without realizing it.Believers tend to not see it because they see way more evil in the world than good but logic says that the human world is progressing quite nicely as way more people do good than evil.Christians just think that some good things are evil and get a bias view.They also lack faith in their own god's ability to get things right.I let them know how wrong they are with this. They don't get it but you might. Is God and His works perfect.The way many Christian see God is to see Him screwing up heaven with evil. Strike one.They then see God screwing up man's beginning in Eden.Strike two.They then see God cleaning house in Noah's day with Genocide and starting over.Strike three.They now wait for His return at end time to clean house yet again.Strike four.Strike four?God plays by His own rules I guess.You and I both know that this view must be false if God‘s works are as perfect as scripture indicates.To my way of thinking, God gets things right the first time and every time.This is why He has not and will not return. His perfect systems are here today the same way that they were here in the beginning. He judged Eden as good. It is just to us to see it. I do. Even with sin and evil and woes, all is perfect and humming along exactly as God wants it to. I call it evolving perfection.Did your version of God get it right or does He need to return to fix things?RegardsDL
"Christians just think that some good things are evil and get a bias view."I hope I am quoting things right, one the one hand I think I made a mistake even posting in this thread because most of what Greatest said is a mess. On the other hand, I wanted to focus on the line I quoted, I think this may be where you lose it altogether from the perspective of Christianity. My mom is a devout Christian, and tells me on a regular basis that the world is going to end, etc., that these are the end times because of....pick your poison. She has a plethora of reasons. Now, all of them from a Christian perspective of what is good and what is evil are correct, the acceptance and advancement of Homosexuality is always a big one, the emergence of porn as a powerhouse in society, etc. The thing that I always assume when she talks about this is she doesn't mean she believes Christ will come back today, or tomorrow, because she actually has no idea, she just knows that a long time ago he said he would come back and also said that the time was already at hand. So, she lives each day like it's the last.As far as all that God is perfect stuff, strike one, strike two, that's just a mess. Think of God as creating a bowling lane, with a perfect ball and a perfect lane and a perfect throw, but the lane is lined with people, who have the choice whether or not to kick the ball or let it perfectly roll by. The ball can never be stopped, and those who kick will have made an egregious error but ultimately a pointless one, as the ball will still arrive at it's target.
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As far as all that God is perfect stuff, strike one, strike two, that's just a mess. Think of God as creating a bowling lane, with a perfect ball and a perfect lane and a perfect throw, but the lane is lined with people, who have the choice whether or not to kick the ball or let it perfectly roll by. The ball can never be stopped, and those who kick will have made an egregious error but ultimately a pointless one, as the ball will still arrive at it's target.
Way to make our lives utterly pointless.
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Even a cursory effort should show you why the sin that Adam and Eve did that caused all the pain and suffering in the world was not a positive for mankind, yet you are now championing the very words of the devil as ultimate truth.
This is still not in the bible. You should probably send God an email so he can include your corrections in future editions.
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This is still not in the bible. You should probably send God an email so he can include your corrections in future editions.
I looked back over this argument we had and I see what I failed to explain to make my point.So here is it in a short version.The Bible story is that God told man not to eat of this tree, the Tree of the Knowledge of good and evil.Because eating from this tree would result in death and sin being brought into the world.You guys got hung up on the notion that eating this fruit transformed man from not knowing the difference between good and evil to beings that did know.You based this on the name of the tree, perfectly understandable, but this alone is not able to stand up to the entire story. I pointed out that the tree of Life didn't transform them from beings who were not alive into beings that were to demonstrate one avenue to show that they didn't gain something that didn't exist in their life before.In fact they were alive, and were going to live forever, with knowledge of good and evil.After they ate the fruit that brought death, God kicked them out of the Garden so they wouldn't eat of the tree of Life and regain the ability to live forever WITH SIN in their lives.The story of the Bible from the beginning to the end tells this story, that man through sin, gained death. God became sin for us to remove this curse.The ONLY source to support your theory that man was without knowledge is the serpent, who is the devil. Also known as the deceiver.You guys have championed the devil's side of the story as being not only true, but beneficial for man.If you see the Bible as only a literary book of learned lessons, your choice of lessons would be the exact opposite of what the authors intended. The story clearly uses the action of eating the forbidden fruit as an indulgence of the flesh with no regard to the consequences, an action that brought evil suffering and death to mankind. If the Bible is the written Word of God, you are choosing to believe that the devil is the only one speaking truth. Based on a belief that Adam was created with no knowledge of good or evil, something that isn't even comprehensible. How can a human have no knowledge of good and evil? And just as Adam was alive, he didn't need to eat the fruit from the Tree of life to live forever, UNTIL he lost this trait because he ate the forbidden fruit. Because the result of eating that tree was not knowing good and evil ( which only the devil said was the case ), the result was losing eternal life, and adding sin to their soul.Either way, you are trying to pull out the minimum number of verses to support you view, while closing your eye to the obvious reality that you are joining sides with the destruction of all of mankind and pretending that this path of evil is the best thing we could do.I don't see how this view is defensible, either from a spiritual or a literary viewpoint. Just proclaiming that the name of the tree coupled with what the devil said is all the information you need requires you to be completed shut off from the clear and simple message that is laid out spiritually and literally.
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Way to make our lives utterly pointless.
Maybe, but you did get to hang out at a Bowling Alley, so it wasn't a total loss.Also, I am not seeing it as fatalistic as you see it I guess. You have a choice- do B and receive Heaven, do B and receive Hell. You can choose not to play (Kick the ball) but ultimately Christ will come back anyway for judgement, it's not like you choosing to ignore/not play/go against Gods will changes anything. That being said, hopefully you at least had a good time kicking the ball while you had the chance to kick, whatever path you took.Incidentally, this stuff interests me but more conceptually than anything else. If anyone were to ask I would say that I lean toward a Christian viewpoint but that path is very personal, and mostly between you and God.
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I looked back over this argument we had and I see what I failed to explain to make my point.
You explained your position, but didn't support it with any evidence.There are questions for you.
In fact they were alive, and were going to live forever, . . .
Support this assertion with the text of Genesis.
with knowledge of good and evil.
Support this assertion with the text of Genesis.
The ONLY source to support your theory that man was without knowledge is the serpent, . . .
This is false. 22Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; . . .According to the Book of Genesis, man was not created like God(s). He became like God (i.e., he changed) in that he knew good from evil, after he ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.
. . . who is the devil. Also known as the deceiver.
Support this assertion with the text of Genesis.
Either way, you are trying to pull out the minimum number of verses to support you view, while closing your eye to the obvious reality that you are joining sides with the destruction of all of mankind and pretending that this path of evil is the best thing we could do.
What verses am I ignoring? It appears thus far that you're basing parts of your "interpretation" of Genesis on zero verses, so this criticism seems pretty hypocritical.
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The story explains my position. The punishment for eating the fruit was dying, and since they didn't keel over, this meant they would begin the dying process.They could have reversed this by eating of the tree of life, so they were kicked out.

22Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; . . .According to the Book of Genesis, man was not created like God(s). He became like God (i.e., he changed) in that he knew good from evil, after he ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.
What is the nature of God that we achieved? If God says we are like Him, what does that mean? you would need to know what the nature of God is, and what we were before to answer that.Were we exactly how we are now, but without any concept of good and evil? What does that mean? Taking a simplistic approach and stating that our knowledge of morality came from eating the tree requires you to explain what we changed from.Whereas applying the same logic of the Tree of Life: that we had eternal life, lost it and could have regained it, and applying it to the other tree fits much better with both a literary and a spiritual explanation.You guys are leaving this question completely unanswered. And in order to do this, you must take a clear and simple story about man's fall from grace and turn it into one where we were ignorant and blind but now we are better. You see how contrary your conclusion is to what is obviously the meaning of this story?It would be no different than using a story of a child who goes to a candy store and one of the candy makers tells him to eat all the candy in the store because it will make him feel good, but his father tells him to not eat before his dinner.But the kid listens to the person with an ulterior motive, eats the candy and gets sick.Then his father nurses him back and explains that eating good food is how you were meant to grow, not filling up on sugar.And now you are arguing that the guy who told him to eat the candy was right, because candy is good.You miss the whole point of the story, and you are refusing to see how this crystal clear message explains the story better than picking one verse and building an entire theory around it.
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So you are saying that God who made all the universe with His spoken word..would be unable to have an animal talk.Because?
Imaginary Gods can do all kinds of imaginary things.Come up with one concrete piece of evidence that your imaginary God created the universe and I will listen.Good luck with that since nothing has surfaced in since religion was born.As to the Bible, you really should stop idol worshiping it.Grow up and stop needing a sky daddy to assuage your fears.RegardsDL

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"Christians just think that some good things are evil and get a bias view."I hope I am quoting things right, one the one hand I think I made a mistake even posting in this thread because most of what Greatest said is a mess. On the other hand, I wanted to focus on the line I quoted, I think this may be where you lose it altogether from the perspective of Christianity. My mom is a devout Christian, and tells me on a regular basis that the world is going to end, etc., that these are the end times because of....pick your poison. She has a plethora of reasons. Now, all of them from a Christian perspective of what is good and what is evil are correct, the acceptance and advancement of Homosexuality is always a big one, the emergence of porn as a powerhouse in society, etc. The thing that I always assume when she talks about this is she doesn't mean she believes Christ will come back today, or tomorrow, because she actually has no idea, she just knows that a long time ago he said he would come back and also said that the time was already at hand. So, she lives each day like it's the last.As far as all that God is perfect stuff, strike one, strike two, that's just a mess. Think of God as creating a bowling lane, with a perfect ball and a perfect lane and a perfect throw, but the lane is lined with people, who have the choice whether or not to kick the ball or let it perfectly roll by. The ball can never be stopped, and those who kick will have made an egregious error but ultimately a pointless one, as the ball will still arrive at it's target.
That is right. A perfect strike.That fits my view of things always being perfect just as it was in the beginning and will be in the end. Scripturaly speaking that is.No imperfect part in the middle. That would screw up God's perfection record.That means He does not have to return to fix what ain't broken.RegardsDL
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Imaginary Gods can do all kinds of imaginary things.Come up with one concrete piece of evidence that your imaginary God created the universe and I will listen.
Okay..the universe
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That is right. A perfect strike.That fits my view of things always being perfect just as it was in the beginning and will be in the end. Scripturaly speaking that is.No imperfect part in the middle. That would screw up God's perfection record.That means He does not have to return to fix what ain't broken.RegardsDL
I don't see it that way. A murderer, having slaughtered 100 people and and ate all of them with his bare hands, was still created perfect and IS still perfect, as far as his created form goes. Who he is now is entirely his own choosing, rightly so. As far as I know from a biblical point of view we were created with the express intent to serve God but don't have to, if we don't want to. If that isn't a perfect creation from an entity who had the power to create robots I don't know what is. Think about- you could snap your fingers and create that which has no other choice but to be what you want it to be and instead you give up that control and GIVE IT TO THE CREATION INSTEAD. That's a powerful statement.
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I would so be joining this discussion & others if it weren't for that douchebag stuffing his ignorant close-minded nose in every discussion thread. Someone get that gia banned so we can have clean nice philosophical/religious discussions about interesting topics again. The point is you can make all the sense in the world and verbally murder this guy, he's just set on his close-minded crap somehow and nothing in the world can change his mind. He's just that kind of person that even if God personally came to him and showed him the truth he's one of those guys who still would dismiss it as irrational and check himself into a mental clinic (which isn't a bad idea either way).

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