This Is Why Everyone Hates Jj

[mle711 0]

I am on the 2nd level of a live $100 mtt (starting stack of 5.5k and I am up to about 6.5 at this point). UTG I get dealt JJ. The blinds a 50/100 and I raise it to 400. Folds around to a guy in middle position who raises to 2k. Everyone else folds. I have played with this guy once before. From what I remember he is a solid player, but does overbet his strong hands on occasion. He knows that if I am coming out firing UTG that I have a hand. Should I just fold?I ended up calling. The flop was AhQc7s. Not at all what I was hoping for on the flop. Should I lead out w/a bet here to see where I am? I checked. He checked behind me. Turn is a blank and I bet 1k. He calls. I check the river and so does he. Did I misplay this hand on every street or is this simply why JJ is such a tough hand to play?

[river_me_this 0]

one don't raise to 400 preflop anywhere from 200-300 is sufficient. two when he 5x's you to 2k and your stack is roughly 5k and you're oop it's probably either a shove or fold situation depending on if you're willing to coinflip at best for your tourney life. if you do flat pre then you almost have to check with a stack of 4k and a pot of 4.5k a bet would prob be all in. Same deal with turn and river with two overs you're looking to get to showdown as cheaply as possible. looks to me like he has kings and you're not gonna get him to fold it.

[XXEddie 0]

Everything you told us about villain makes it sound like you are behind. "He likes to overbet his strong hands.. He knows if I come in UTG I have a hand..." If that is the read then fold preflop. I think flat calling is horrible. It leaves you with 1PSB on the flop. It's just too much of your stack to flat with when you are basically set mining.As far as preflop I would say Fold>>Shove>>>>>>>>>>>Flat.On the flop... Don't EVER bet to see "where you are at." It's the biggest myth in poker. Again, with your read what is there to find out? Villain probably has TT+, AQs+ and that could be a wide range. Now your only hope is that he has TT or that you can somehow make him fold KK. I'm guessing by the way the hand played out he ended up tabling KK. If you are going to bet the turn it needs to be more than 1k. I would advise a bet of 2.5k. I believe that would make KK fold and it'll save you the rest of your chips when villain has a hand. However I don't think I would ever bet this turn....AA, QQ, AK, AQ crush you and never foldKK beats you, but you could get him to foldJJ you tie, and you could get him to foldTT you beat, and with villains read he isn't gonna bet anyway.So out of the 7 hands he could have you have 2 +EV possibilities...To summarize....Fold pre.Check/fold all other streets.

[mle711 0]

Everything you told us about villain makes it sound like you are behind. "He likes to overbet his strong hands.. He knows if I come in UTG I have a hand..." If that is the read then fold preflop. I think flat calling is horrible. It leaves you with 1PSB on the flop. It's just too much of your stack to flat with when you are basically set mining.As far as preflop I would say Fold>>Shove>>>>>>>>>>>Flat.On the flop... Don't EVER bet to see "where you are at." It's the biggest myth in poker. Again, with your read what is there to find out? Villain probably has TT+, AQs+ and that could be a wide range. Now your only hope is that he has TT or that you can somehow make him fold KK. I'm guessing by the way the hand played out he ended up tabling KK. If you are going to bet the turn it needs to be more than 1k. I would advise a bet of 2.5k. I believe that would make KK fold and it'll save you the rest of your chips when villain has a hand. However I don't think I would ever bet this turn....AA, QQ, AK, AQ crush you and never foldKK beats you, but you could get him to foldJJ you tie, and you could get him to foldTT you beat, and with villains read he isn't gonna bet anyway.So out of the 7 hands he could have you have 2 +EV possibilities...To summarize....Fold pre.Check/fold all other streets.

[cashman 0]

Everything you told us about villain makes it sound like you are behind. "He likes to overbet his strong hands.. He knows if I come in UTG I have a hand..." If that is the read then fold preflop. I think flat calling is horrible. It leaves you with 1PSB on the flop. It's just too much of your stack to flat with when you are basically set mining.As far as preflop I would say Fold>>Shove>>>>>>>>>>>Flat.On the flop... Don't EVER bet to see "where you are at." It's the biggest myth in poker. Again, with your read what is there to find out? Villain probably has TT+, AQs+ and that could be a wide range. Now your only hope is that he has TT or that you can somehow make him fold KK. I'm guessing by the way the hand played out he ended up tabling KK. If you are going to bet the turn it needs to be more than 1k. I would advise a bet of 2.5k. I believe that would make KK fold and it'll save you the rest of your chips when villain has a hand. However I don't think I would ever bet this turn....AA, QQ, AK, AQ crush you and never foldKK beats you, but you could get him to foldJJ you tie, and you could get him to foldTT you beat, and with villains read he isn't gonna bet anyway.So out of the 7 hands he could have you have 2 +EV possibilities...To summarize....Fold pre.Check/fold all other streets.

That is pretty much what I thought. I think folding preflop was probably the best move. He ended up having 10s. I got lucky and won the hand but I felt like I was playing blind the whole way.

[TrueAce13 18]

yeah, please don't 4x utg...didn't really get further than that reading the hand described

[rrumsey 0]

you know given an old guy and a massive 3 bet of an utg 4x open i think you could release this pre. there is like no way to profitably play this hand OOP at this point, and we are too deep for a 4 bet shove to work. and 4 betting seems worst then jamming.

[TrueAce13 18]

and now read the hand....yeh thats a large 3bet. I think its a fold or shove pf...pretty silly, i lean more toward fold tbh b/c live players are really flipping nitty, and don't 3bet with less than like QQAs played. I don't mind the bet of 1k, but might just try to check it downEddie: I agree that if we were deeper, I wouldn't mind betting more on ther turn, but given that if we bet bigger, we are gonna have to call his all in

[Mercury69 3]

Everything you told us about villain makes it sound like you are behind. "He likes to overbet his strong hands.. He knows if I come in UTG I have a hand..." If that is the read then fold preflop. I think flat calling is horrible. It leaves you with 1PSB on the flop. It's just too much of your stack to flat with when you are basically set mining.As far as preflop I would say Fold>>Shove>>>>>>>>>>>Flat.On the flop... Don't EVER bet to see "where you are at." It's the biggest myth in poker. Again, with your read what is there to find out? Villain probably has TT+, AQs+ and that could be a wide range. Now your only hope is that he has TT or that you can somehow make him fold KK. I'm guessing by the way the hand played out he ended up tabling KK. If you are going to bet the turn it needs to be more than 1k. I would advise a bet of 2.5k. I believe that would make KK fold and it'll save you the rest of your chips when villain has a hand. However I don't think I would ever bet this turn....AA, QQ, AK, AQ crush you and never foldKK beats you, but you could get him to foldJJ you tie, and you could get him to foldTT you beat, and with villains read he isn't gonna bet anyway.So out of the 7 hands he could have you have 2 +EV possibilities...To summarize....Fold pre.Check/fold all other streets.

[cdipierr 0]

What's the structure? It sounds like it's a fast structured sort of thing, and if so, are we talking like 20 min levels? If so, I'd lean to a shove. Otherwise fold.

[wsox8 10]

yeah we all hate JoeyJoeJoe

[babylondonks 5]

Everything you told us about villain makes it sound like you are behind. "He likes to overbet his strong hands.. He knows if I come in UTG I have a hand..." If that is the read then fold preflop. I think flat calling is horrible. It leaves you with 1PSB on the flop. It's just too much of your stack to flat with when you are basically set mining.As far as preflop I would say Fold>>Shove>>>>>>>>>>>Flat.On the flop... Don't EVER bet to see "where you are at." It's the biggest myth in poker. Again, with your read what is there to find out? Villain probably has TT+, AQs+ and that could be a wide range. Now your only hope is that he has TT or that you can somehow make him fold KK. I'm guessing by the way the hand played out he ended up tabling KK. If you are going to bet the turn it needs to be more than 1k. I would advise a bet of 2.5k. I believe that would make KK fold and it'll save you the rest of your chips when villain has a hand. However I don't think I would ever bet this turn....AA, QQ, AK, AQ crush you and never foldKK beats you, but you could get him to foldJJ you tie, and you could get him to foldTT you beat, and with villains read he isn't gonna bet anyway.So out of the 7 hands he could have you have 2 +EV possibilities...To summarize....Fold pre.Check/fold all other streets.

Just going to point out this a bit misleading because of hand combinations. There are 3 remaining combos of aces, 12 of AK, 9 of AQ and 3 of queens. Then there's only 3 KK combos, 1 of JJ and 3 of TT. So instead of the 2/7 +ev possibilities, it's more like 7/27 which is still remarkably close so it isn't really important in this example. Just in general it's far superior to think in combinations of hands instead of simple hands.

yeah, please don't 4x utg...didn't really get further than that reading the hand described

I'm actually fine with 4xing UTG in a live format like this pre-antes. Meh.

[Fade2241 0]

I'm actually fine with 4xing UTG in a live format like this pre-antes. Meh.

this but i think as stated flatting is lighting money on fire, you don't have AA or KK. fold or shove pf yo.

[XXEddie 0]

and now read the hand....yeh thats a large 3bet. I think its a fold or shove pf...pretty silly, i lean more toward fold tbh b/c live players are really flipping nitty, and don't 3bet with less than like QQAs played. I don't mind the bet of 1k, but might just try to check it downEddie: I agree that if we were deeper, I wouldn't mind betting more on ther turn, but given that if we bet bigger, we are gonna have to call his all in

I hate you both. And I say that with so much love . I disagree with if villain shoves to a bigger turn bet we have to call. Given the read on villain a shove means we are NEVER ahead. EVER!. We aren't getting 20-1... hell we aren't getting 10-1.. So why call?

Just going to point out this a bit misleading because of hand combinations. There are 3 remaining combos of aces, 12 of AK, 9 of AQ and 3 of queens. Then there's only 3 KK combos, 1 of JJ and 3 of TT. So instead of the 2/7 +ev possibilities, it's more like 7/27 which is still remarkably close so it isn't really important in this example. Just in general it's far superior to think in combinations of hands instead of simple hands.I'm actually fine with 4xing UTG in a live format like this pre-antes. Meh.

Again, hate w/ love... yadda yadd. I have never been a fan of this logic. That certain hands are more likely because they are mathematically more likely. It's just not true. 12 combos of AK and only 1 of JJ...so what? The way this hand has played out I think JJ is way more likely.

[TrueAce13 18]

4xing is stupid tho and does the same as 3xing [x] live pro bru

[babylondonks 5]

I hate you both. And I say that with so much love . I disagree with if villain shoves to a bigger turn bet we have to call. Given the read on villain a shove means we are NEVER ahead. EVER!. We aren't getting 20-1... hell we aren't getting 10-1.. So why call?Again, hate w/ love... yadda yadd. I have never been a fan of this logic. That certain hands are more likely because they are mathematically more likely. It's just not true. 12 combos of AK and only 1 of JJ...so what? The way this hand has played out I think JJ is way more likely.

Err, that's why you weight the range and combos. JJ is only more likely if he plays it like this 12.000000001x as often as he would play AK this way because he's only going to be dealt JJ 1/12 the time he is AK in this spot.

4xing is stupid tho and does the same as 3xing [x] live pro bru

I'm trying to remember that one silly mistake you made live that was really funny and silly, but I can't remember. So you win this round.

[FARGOpokerND 22]

Err, that's why you weight the range and combos. JJ is only more likely if he plays it like this 12.000000001x as often as he would play AK this way because he's only going to be dealt JJ 1/12 the time he is AK in this spot.I'm trying to remember that one silly mistake you made live that was really funny and silly, but I can't remember. So you win this round.

He flipped his hand over at the 1k and got penalized because action wasn't finished yet

[TrueAce13 18]

He flipped his hand over at the 1k and got penalized because action wasn't finished yet

hufd