$1k Wsop Event

[donk4life 34]

I really didn't think I was bluffing when I raised to $1k. I figured I was ahead and reraised him. When he insta shoved on me with all of that information is when I thought maybe he actually did have the aces. Seemed to me like nothing other than a set of Js or AA, with AA being the more likely of the two. I could have been wrong but I still have half my stack if he flips over QQ. I have seen your stats and I know you're a hell of an online player so I respect your opinion. I am not trying to argue, simply debate a little bit.

Raising for information is just something you shouldn't do. When you raise/fold with KK there, you are essentially turning KK into a bluff. Why raise with KK on that flop if you're just going to fold it? His range is so so so so so so so wide there and is not limited to JJ or AA. IT'S A 1K WORLD SERIES EVENT, PLAYERS ARE TERRIBLE AND WILL OVERVALUE THEIR HANDS. He could have thought because he has two face cards like KJ is worthy of a 10x raise PF. Players are not nits in these tournaments, they're stupid. It's almost as if you posted to this hand just to brag that you were able to fold KK when the guy AA.

[CaneBrain 95]

Raising for information is just something you shouldn't do. When you raise/fold with KK there, you are essentially turning KK into a bluff. Why raise with KK on that flop if you're just going to fold it? His range is so so so so so so so wide there and is not limited to JJ or AA. IT'S A 1K WORLD SERIES EVENT, PLAYERS ARE TERRIBLE AND WILL OVERVALUE THEIR HANDS. He could have thought because he has two face cards like KJ is worthy of a 10x raise PF. Players are not nits in these tournaments, they're stupid. It's almost as if you posted to this hand just to brag that you were able to fold KK when the guy AA.

I bolded all the unnecessary words.

[Mercury69 3]

Sofa

[nutzzcase 0]

why do you even post this hand ?How can we discuss any strategy when you've made a play based mainly on a read?

[cashman 0]

why do you even post this hand ?How can we discuss any strategy when you've made a play based mainly on a read?

I guess that is what my main point was in asking you guys about the hand. To see what you thought based on my observations of the table and my read on the other guy. I certainly wasnt bragging as I didn't even cash. Basically, it was to see what your thoughts were thought of the play. Apparently I was wrong to fold. Got it.

[CaneBrain 95]

I guess that is what my main point was in asking you guys about the hand. To see what you thought based on my observations of the table and my read on the other guy. I certainly wasnt bragging as I didn't even cash. Basically, it was to see what your thoughts were thought of the play. Apparently I was wrong to fold. Got it.

I think the worst part was not 3 betting pre flop. Its a short stacked tournament. If you get Kings, get as much in preflop as you can. If he has aces, oh well.

[dead money 1]

I really didn't think I was bluffing when I raised to $1k. I figured I was ahead and reraised him. When he insta shoved on me with all of that information is when I thought maybe he actually did have the aces. Seemed to me like nothing other than a set of Js or AA, with AA being the more likely of the two. I could have been wrong but I still have half my stack if he flips over QQ. I have seen your stats and I know you're a hell of an online player so I respect your opinion. I am not trying to argue, simply debate a little bit.

You didnt think you were bluffing when you raised to 1k? Really? You sure about that? If you figured you were ahead then why were you pretty certain he had AA preflop. "I was gonna shove pre, but I figured he had a couple of hands and AA seemed the most likely to me."That is an exact quote from one of your posts. So you were pretty sure you were crushed preflop, but when the flop came J high you were pretty sure you were ahead? It must be nice living in "I can skew everything to fit my needs" land. Arguing is easy when you take both sides.

[SuperJon 175]

I don't understand how you can fold the flop even if he shows you AA.You know you can still catch 1 of the 2 remaining kings, whcih are more likely to show up on the turn or river more than any other card. Not to mention with the J on the flop, you have tons of backdoor straight draws, and maybe even some backdoor flush drawers (I don't know the suits of the cards).Maybe someone good can stove this but pretty sure with all those outs yo're equity is something like 62.356% which equats to a variable constant decision of getting approxamtely 3.4:2 on your money.ez call

[jesseru87 0]

I don't understand how you can fold the flop even if he shows you AA.You know you can still catch 1 of the 2 remaining kings, whcih are more likely to show up on the turn or river more than any other card. Not to mention with the J on the flop, you have tons of backdoor straight draws, and maybe even some backdoor flush drawers (I don't know the suits of the cards).Maybe someone good can stove this but pretty sure with all those outs yo're equity is something like 62.356% which equats to a variable constant decision of getting approxamtely 3.4:2 on your money.ez call

this post was so awesome it made me post for the first time in years.

[babylondonks 5]

you guys just don't seem to understand that he raised the flop for pot control.

[mle711 0]

Raising for information is just something you shouldn't do. When you raise/fold with KK there, you are essentially turning KK into a bluff. Why raise with KK on that flop if you're just going to fold it? His range is so so so so so so so wide there and is not limited to JJ or AA. IT'S A 1K WORLD SERIES EVENT, PLAYERS ARE TERRIBLE AND WILL OVERVALUE THEIR HANDS. He could have thought because he has two face cards like KJ is worthy of a 10x raise PF. Players are not nits in these tournaments, they're stupid. It's almost as if you posted to this hand just to brag that you were able to fold KK when the guy AA.

I am new here, but I am curious as to why raising the flop, even if it is somewhat of a feeler bet, is so wrong? It seems to me that if he doesn't raise w/that flop than he will have zero information to go on. Why would it be so bad to throw out 1k rather than shoving? If he really lasted another 10 hours it seems like he was ok to try and fight his way back w/half of his stack still in tact rather than going ahead and getting it all in even when it seems like the guy definitely could have AA.

[donk4life 34]

I am new here, but I am curious as to why raising the flop, even if it is somewhat of a feeler bet, is so wrong? It seems to me that if he doesn't raise w/that flop than he will have zero information to go on. Why would it be so bad to throw out 1k rather than shoving? If he really lasted another 10 hours it seems like he was ok to try and fight his way back w/half of his stack still in tact rather than going ahead and getting it all in even when it seems like the guy definitely could have AA.

Because if you're going to raise KK with that flop, then fold to a bet, why are you raising in the first place? Are you bluffing? And raising in this spot doesn't give you any information at all, it is literally the driest of flops and any random opponent in a WSOP 1k event will be doing crazy shit with numerous hands here that we are beating. Raising to figure out where you're at is pointless in this spot, because if you get jammed on you're in the exact same spot you were in before you raised. Also, no one is advocating shoving over his bet, raising is fine in this spot if you have every intention to call it off.

[hartman72 0]

Why are you raising him on the flop and not preflop? I just want to hear your strategy behind this.

[cashman 0]

Why are you raising him on the flop and not preflop? I just want to hear your strategy behind this.

I am afraid to respond to anything at this point. Here was my thinking though and I am sure the bashing will begin as soon as I do too, but here goes. Preflop the guy who hasn't played anything raises 10x the bb. At worst in my opinion he has AK. I was about to raise when I figured, hes made a huge preflop bet, if I shove he is probably going to insta call. I am pretty sure we have all lost w/KK plenty of times and I figured if no ace hits this flop I may be able to take it down. If he happens to have AK, I can simply call, see a flop, and then decide what to do. When he came out firing on a J high flop I actually thought I was probably ahead. It could be a continuation bet w/AK, AJ, QQ, 1010 or any number of hands. At the same time I didn't think there was a need to shove and, maybe just maybe, I can actually get some info here. The way he insta shoved and was so relaxed scared me and made me slow down and think about it. I really wasn't sure what to do. Even though I thought I might be beat I kept telling myself how can I fold KK on this flop. When I told him what I had and he seemed to relax a bit I really started to think he had AA. Although you can never be sure, sometimes I just trust my reads. I raised thinking I was probably ahead and after his reraise I was pretty sure I was behind. I counted my chips and figured I can fold here and maybe fight my way back and if I call and he has it I am out in the first blind level.

[hartman72 0]

I just like to be consistent. If I play a hand passively preflop, I'm going to play it passively after the flop unless I flop the nuts. A raise on the flop will probably get hands like AJ and 10 10 to fold. QQ will stay in, but that's about it. AA, JJ however, will reraise, so raising the flop is almost a no win situation unless villain has QQ.By calling, we can let AJ and QQ keep firing drawing almost dead and we may not lose as much. (ALthough I'm still stacking off here)

[babylondonks 5]

and we also let hands like AK continue to bluff

[cdipierr 0]

I just like to be consistent. If I play a hand passively preflop, I'm going to play it passively after the flop unless I flop the nuts. A raise on the flop will probably get hands like AJ and 10 10 to fold. QQ will stay in, but that's about it. AA, JJ however, will reraise, so raising the flop is almost a no win situation unless villain has QQ.By calling, we can let AJ and QQ keep firing drawing almost dead and we may not lose as much. (ALthough I'm still stacking off here)

In this tournament, AJ is never folding to a flop raise, and is probably shoving on us.

[cashman 0]

and we also let hands like AK continue to bluff

So are you defending me somewhat that the raise actually did have some merit?

[TrueAce13 18]

So are you defending me somewhat that the raise actually did have some merit?

No. What he is saying is not to raise, that we can flat this cbet and let worse hands continue to bluff

[RakeMyBlind 0]

I was about to raise when I figured, hes made a huge preflop bet, if I shove he is probably going to insta call.

I'm definitely no expert, but isn't this what you want with KK? If villain would have showed you QQ what would you be thinking right now? I'm sure this discussion would have never been started if that would have been the case.

[mle711 0]

No. What he is saying is not to raise, that we can flat this cbet and let worse hands continue to bluff

so the optimal play is to smooth call all the way and then jam on the river? don't we want to try and get some information at some point?

[TrueAce13 18]

so the optimal play is to smooth call all the way and then jam on the river? don't we want to try and get some information at some point?

optimal play is to get it in pre flop. But since we are here, and we have KK, we can flat and hope he barrels

[Tehtoe 3]

ugbhhuodfsvliaafs information information information HUAD

[Kennydawgg 0]

I also want to add that 60 minute blinds are very similar to a 20 minute blind structure online. as live hands per hour are 35-50 and online is 100-120+again revisiting the 10x preflop raise, how did that compare to his other raises? you cant assume aces just because its 10x if he always raises 10x then this could be a range of hands. . . But I think this is obvious to most players. .

[FARGOpokerND 22]

Cashman, I am seeing some poor logic in your posts in this thread. Lets start by preflop. They guy raises 9x to 225. Personally, I don't mind flatting...the guy obv is either 1. in love with his hand and won't fold or 2. scared with his hand and just wants to take it down now (Hands like 88-TT and AK). Flatting allows you to underrep your hand and get players to spazz out with hands like TT QQ AK on raggy-ish flops (like your flop), whereas raising looks so scary, it is possible he would fold hands like TT-JJ and AK. The important thing is the spazz part. It allows him to feel comfortable with a flop and stick it in with TT on an 853 flop or bluff with AK a few times. There is obviously merit to 3betting too, as the WSOP 1k structure IS fast when you get into the 3rd-5th levels...so accumulating chips early is VERY important. By flatting preflop you can raise a flop and get hands to shove into you more often than not...live tell or not. You should never EVER EVER EVER EVER be raise/folding that flop. Yeah, once he shoves you might get the tell he has AA, but you should never be getting yourself in that spot in the first place. As they have all said, by raise/folding you are turning your hand into a bluff if you plan on folding to a shove. You shouldn't EVER be raising the flop, then looking for a tell to decide if you want to call if he shoves...especially since they are not totally reliable. You raise with the intent on calling a shove since as I said, your hand is massively underrepped. -LIVE PRO (right ryan?!)