Mercury69 3 Posted July 8, 2010 Share Posted July 8, 2010 OMG! I am not taking textbook EV optimal lines into account! Sky is falling!My circuitry must be faulty. Link to post Share on other sites
Pivvy2001 0 Posted July 8, 2010 Share Posted July 8, 2010 Why not up your "Nice Lurbz" dosage, dude? Stop being a dick and get back to making contributions.Why not just drop it? How many people have to tell you that you are wrong before you give up. The dscoot comparison was fair. I am not trying to pile on and don't care that much about the debate. However, you have crossed the line of trying to learn and are simply being obstinate. The fact that you acknowledge that you are not a winning player and then don't budge from the view that your line is correct is mind-boggling.Take a break from posting. Realize that Lurbz is often a misanthropic troll (but one who does make good contributions at times and in this thread has been working you like a speed bag), and move on. Link to post Share on other sites
Pivvy2001 0 Posted July 8, 2010 Share Posted July 8, 2010 OMG! I am not taking textbook EV optimal lines into account! Sky is falling!My circuitry must be faulty.This was not funny. See my above post. You aren't helping. Link to post Share on other sites
Mercury69 3 Posted July 8, 2010 Share Posted July 8, 2010 Why not just drop it? How many people have to tell you that you are wrong before you give up. The dscoot comparison was fair. I am not trying to pile on and don't care that much about the debate. However, you have crossed the line of trying to learn and are simply being obstinate. The fact that you acknowledge that you are not a winning player and then don't budge from the view that your line is correct is mind-boggling.Take a break from posting. Realize that Lurbz is often a misanthropic troll (but one who does make good contributions at times and in this thread has been working you like a speed bag), and move on. This was not funny. See my above post. You aren't helping.I'm not being obstinate and "not budging". I have not claimed to be "right" or that I have produced any kind of flawless path to victory.I am trying to determine why people like the "2.5x raise and call a shove line". I want to know why people are making the assumption that the BB is going to shove over a 2.5x raise and not fold or flat call. I am also talking about (and not necessarily advocating) other lines of play. This is what a discussion is all about. Is that so ****ing hard to understand?Part of my point here, as mentioned by Kai (thank you for your comment), is that not eveyone plays "by the book" or even KNOWS optimal EV lines, so this expectation (BB will shove) appears faulty.Man, if people have a problem with discussion, maybe they are the ones who should take a break from posting. Personally, I like a little more depth than "raise/call wut". Link to post Share on other sites
Balloon guy 158 Posted July 8, 2010 Share Posted July 8, 2010 I still think when ante's are introduced, your raise pre-flop should reflect this. Link to post Share on other sites
tbrick412 0 Posted July 8, 2010 Share Posted July 8, 2010 You played the hand terribly, everybody knows that AQ suited is never good at PokerStars..... unlesss you flop the nuts flush...+1, well said arsenic Link to post Share on other sites
Fade2241 0 Posted July 8, 2010 Share Posted July 8, 2010 I'm not being obstinate and "not budging". I have not claimed to be "right" or that I have produced any kind of flawless path to victory.I am trying to determine why people like the "2.5x raise and call a shove line". I want to know why people are making the assumption that the BB is going to shove over a 2.5x raise and not fold or flat call. I am also talking about (and not necessarily advocating) other lines of play. This is what a discussion is all about. Is that so ****ing hard to understand?Part of my point here, as mentioned by Kai (thank you for your comment), is that not eveyone plays "by the book" or even KNOWS optimal EV lines, so this expectation (BB will shove) appears faulty.Man, if people have a problem with discussion, maybe they are the ones who should take a break from posting. Personally, I like a little more depth than "raise/call wut".I don't think anyone is going to hold your hand to help you figure this out. Also, this isn't a 'discussion' - how much more depth on a common sense scenario do you need? This hand isn't that interesting or complex, stop trying to make it out to be please. Link to post Share on other sites
Mercury69 3 Posted July 8, 2010 Share Posted July 8, 2010 I don't think anyone is going to hold your hand to help you figure this out. Also, this isn't a 'discussion' - how much more depth on a common sense scenario do you need? This hand isn't that interesting or complex, stop trying to make it out to be please.That's probably the best advice I've had on this thread. Link to post Share on other sites
lurbz 2 Posted July 8, 2010 Share Posted July 8, 2010 I'm not being obstinate and "not budging". I have not claimed to be "right" or that I have produced any kind of flawless path to victory.I am trying to determine why people like the "2.5x raise and call a shove line". I want to know why people are making the assumption that the BB is going to shove over a 2.5x raise and not fold or flat call. I am also talking about (and not necessarily advocating) other lines of play. This is what a discussion is all about. Is that so ****ing hard to understand?Part of my point here, as mentioned by Kai (thank you for your comment), is that not eveyone plays "by the book" or even KNOWS optimal EV lines, so this expectation (BB will shove) appears faulty.Man, if people have a problem with discussion, maybe they are the ones who should take a break from posting. Personally, I like a little more depth than "raise/call wut".That's why several people told you what the optimal EV line was.We have 0 reads on villain, so we have to treat villain as a standard player. Standard player will shove back very light on a resteal thinking we're looking to pick up blinds. No one is giving credibility to your opinion because it is suboptimal, and suboptimal play shouldn't really be discussed as an option. OP also got the money in good with a made hand. You came in critiquing the OP (not asking a question, you made several criticisms, I can quote it for you if you're too lazy) after several other people said the play was fine and he got it in good, just unlucky, and then 0 people tell you your thinking is correct and you call us "idiots" and "internet fags". Every post you make in this thread has made you look even dumber than the last one. Several proven winners in MTTs have come in here and said your lines of thinking are, at best, horrible. If you want to discuss the hand, don't come in giving advice, you can lurk strat forums and ask questions, rather than give shitty advice and be a butthurt 15 year old about it when everyone tells you you're wrong and an idiot. Link to post Share on other sites
babylondonks 5 Posted July 8, 2010 Share Posted July 8, 2010 "I" "personally" am "quite" intrigued "by" the "random" "use" of "these talking marks" "constantly" "." "What do" they "me"an? Link to post Share on other sites
Acekob 0 Posted July 8, 2010 Share Posted July 8, 2010 "I" "personally" am "quite" intrigued "by" the "random" "use" of "these talking marks" "constantly" "." "What do" they "me"an?"****" you Link to post Share on other sites
lurbz 2 Posted July 9, 2010 Share Posted July 9, 2010 Realize that Lurbz is often a misanthropic troll (but one who does make good contributions at times and in this thread has been working you like a speed bag), and move on.i resent the fact that the best word you could come up with was misanthropic Link to post Share on other sites
dillingerfreak 0 Posted July 12, 2010 Author Share Posted July 12, 2010 woah, i go away for a couple of days and come back to this!!! haha. great read. the original reason i posted was just because of the abuse i got from other players and rail straight after the hand. admittedly my original PFR does look like a steal, but i expect BB to shove rather than flat call with Q2 diamonds. maybe i should raise bigger PFR, i just didnt expect BB to call my overbet on the flop and put his tournament life on a draw, so deep into the tournament! Link to post Share on other sites
looshle 6 Posted July 12, 2010 Share Posted July 12, 2010 Hardly ever, except when you know it will induce a raise over which you can shove, which is the principal point of the matter. I think anyone with AQ in this spot would be looking to get it all in. If you have a "history" with the BB, you'd have a better idea of what would induce a shove/raise, so a limp isn't completely out of the question, it's just that it could backfire on you in more ways than the other options. Part of this discussion should have included analysis of lines that, on the surface, "look" like mistakes that will induce a mistake from villain, which is why I advocate consideration for all possible lines and not eliminatiing lines that seem foolish.I still like a shove, as it could be perceived as a panic steal, I suppose. Don't you want to make your oppoent think you're on a straight steal? If BB has a real hand, fine it's a race. If he calls with ATC, you're a small to big favorite (optimal). If he folds, you pick up the blinds. People can debate the 19 BB vs M of 8 factor all they want, but there is a lot of info missing from any single hand analysis.Min-raise (to induce a re-raise or shove by the BB) could easily be flatted by the BB, at which point you have more chips invested than a limp and now your opponent has 3 more cards and you still have no idea where you are, so you're stuck with c-bet/shoving the flop, unless you check/shove against a BB bet and he still could have you beat because you let him see a cheap flop.Part of what I am saying is that this is not as cut and dried as some people are saying. The assumption that the BB will RR/shove over your "standard" raise is kind of silly and to use the undetermined action of what you THINK your opponent SHOULD do as the fulcrum of your argument is even more silly.1) Yes a limp is completely out of the question. You are much more likely to get shoved on by jamming here and have 0 equity in winning the pot preflop.2) Raising looks 100% more like a steal bc you still have the backup of being able to fold. Your opponent has perceived "fold equity" meaning that he thinks part of the time he will make money by you folding, which will make him shove a wider range than if he knew you were calling 100%. Also, no one calls M8 open jams with ATC, especially CO vs BB. That's just retarded.3) You seem to be scared to see a flop. We are rarely going to see a flop, but we will see one a lot if we limp. We ALSO get 3 more cards! HOF Everyone can use them!! 4) You can't check/shove in position.5) Raise/calling (PREFLOP) here is and will always be the correct play, and have the highest EV. The fuss in this thread is that you are trying to argue your side when you really dont know what your side is or have any real idea of what you are talking about.6) Raising anything more than this preflop is bad because it appears stronger and gives your opponent a worse price on jamming (even though theres more money in the pot, a bigger raise indicates that you will call more often so that the % of you folding goes down drastically"7) When really good players tell you what the optimal line is, just ask them why and soak it all in. Link to post Share on other sites
Pivvy2001 0 Posted July 12, 2010 Share Posted July 12, 2010 Lots of additional solid advice to be ignored by Mercury.The advice in this post is solid, but I must say that it seemed to lack the comedic zest that we expect and love in a Loosh post. Perhaps if Mercury returns, you will be able to follow-up his argument to your advice with a quick one liner or two. Link to post Share on other sites
Ship_itt 0 Posted July 12, 2010 Share Posted July 12, 2010 The advice in this post is solid, but I must say that it seemed to lack the comedic zest that we expect and love in a Loosh post. Perhaps if Mercury returns, you will be able to follow-up his argument to your advice with a quick one liner or two.hes gettin old Link to post Share on other sites
JSpencer 0 Posted July 12, 2010 Share Posted July 12, 2010 Some fairly solid advice in this tread. Can't help but wonder why we are still arguing about it. Link to post Share on other sites
Mercury69 3 Posted July 12, 2010 Share Posted July 12, 2010 1) Yes a limp is completely out of the question. You are much more likely to get shoved on by jamming here and have 0 equity in winning the pot preflop.2) Raising looks 100% more like a steal bc you still have the backup of being able to fold. Your opponent has perceived "fold equity" meaning that he thinks part of the time he will make money by you folding, which will make him shove a wider range than if he knew you were calling 100%. Also, no one calls M8 open jams with ATC, especially CO vs BB. That's just retarded.3) You seem to be scared to see a flop. We are rarely going to see a flop, but we will see one a lot if we limp. We ALSO get 3 more cards! HOF Everyone can use them!! 4) You can't check/shove in position.5) Raise/calling (PREFLOP) here is and will always be the correct play, and have the highest EV. The fuss in this thread is that you are trying to argue your side when you really dont know what your side is or have any real idea of what you are talking about.6) Raising anything more than this preflop is bad because it appears stronger and gives your opponent a worse price on jamming (even though theres more money in the pot, a bigger raise indicates that you will call more often so that the % of you folding goes down drastically"7) When really good players tell you what the optimal line is, just ask them why and soak it all in.Thx, Looshle, much appreciated. Link to post Share on other sites
looshle 6 Posted July 12, 2010 Share Posted July 12, 2010 Thx, Looshle, much appreciated.tl;dr Link to post Share on other sites
donk4life 34 Posted July 12, 2010 Share Posted July 12, 2010 Thats very good and well thought out advice looshle. It seems rare on this site nowadays to get great stuff like this which was the whole reason I started reading FCP every day, so thank you Link to post Share on other sites
Eleusis 2 Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 Nice to see that all the real strategy is gone from fcp. Link to post Share on other sites
JustLikeNegs 1 Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 Nice to see that all the real strategy is gone from fcp.becasue i presume you provided alot.... Link to post Share on other sites
r0llin_game 1 Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 becasue i presume you provided alot....this made me lol, prolly because i know how it sounded from out of his mouth Link to post Share on other sites
JustLikeNegs 1 Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 this made me lol, prolly because i know how it sounded from out of his mouthlol. gfy Link to post Share on other sites
babylondonks 5 Posted July 14, 2010 Share Posted July 14, 2010 I love everything out of negs' mouth, but I love my **** inside his mouth even more Link to post Share on other sites
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