Does Anyone Raise Here?

[shynepo3 0]

EDIT...I HAD 6/8 DIAMONDS....i put 5/7 by accident earlierThis hand took place a few weeks ago, but i think about it a lot...2/5 live, i'm on the button, h/j raises to $15, i call with 6/8 diamonds. only me and h/j to the flop.History on h/j - loose aggressive. i've seen him try big bluffs and get caught, and show big bluffs when successful in the past. Maybe not the best player to take a flop with 6/8 diamonds, but i do have position.StacksH/j has about $400Hero coversflop ($37)5 7 8, with 1 diamondh/j bets $20hero calls $20turn ($77)10 diamondsh/j bets $60Hero raises to $200H/j shoves all-in ($120 more)Hero callsShould i have just called here on the turn? I felt there was a very good chance he missed the flop/turn completely, or could have a draw at best, and I could take it down with the raise. I dont think I'm ever folding here. Maybe I should have raised on the flop? Against a loose agg, what would be standard here?edit ***if it makes a difference, h/j tanked for a LOOONG time before deciding to shove. i should note, that it did not seem like he was hollywooding, but decided that if he was gonna call, he might as well shove.

[Ninja Ace 1]

raise flop

[fighter 4]

This hand took place a few weeks ago, but i think about it a lot...2/5 live, i'm on the button, h/j raises to $15, i call with 5/7 diamonds. only me and h/j to the flop.History on h/j - loose aggressive. i've seen him try big bluffs and get caught, and show big bluffs when successful in the past. Maybe not the best player to take a flop with 6/8 diamonds, but i do have position.StacksH/j has about $400Hero coversflop ($37)5 7 8, with 1 diamondh/j bets $20hero calls $20turn ($77)10 diamondsh/j bets $60Hero raises to $200H/j shoves all-in ($120 more)Hero callsShould i have just called here on the turn? I felt there was a very good chance he missed the flop/turn completely, or could have a draw at best, and I could take it down with the raise. I dont think I'm ever folding here. Maybe I should have raised on the flop? Against a loose agg, what would be standard here?edit ***if it makes a difference, h/j tanked for a LOOONG time before deciding to shove. i should note, that it did not seem like he was hollywooding, but decided that if he was gonna call, he might as well shove.

you have 57 or 68? You said both hands, they are very different.With 57, raising flop would be fine, calling is position is also fine since he sounds like a guy who will try and bluff too often. Calling or shoving turn is also fine with 57, I prefer calling since he will again on bluff river too often and since you have the BDF, he will pay you off if you do hit flush and shove over river. You shouldn't raise river if he bets it since live players suck at value betting and you have an awful 2 pair here. With 68, raising flop is horrible. Calling is good. On turn, I think raising is marginal/bad. I like calling best. I might call river as well if you pick up a tell or don't think he can value bet light or you have a weak table image. Default should be to fold though.

[Biff Goods 0]

you have 57 or 68? You said both hands, they are very different.With 57, raising flop would be fine, calling is position is also fine since he sounds like a guy who will try and bluff too often. Calling or shoving turn is also fine with 57, I prefer calling since he will again on bluff river too often and since you have the BDF, he will pay you off if you do hit flush and shove over river. You shouldn't raise river if he bets it since live players suck at value betting and you have an awful 2 pair here. With 68, raising flop is horrible. Calling is good. On turn, I think raising is marginal/bad. I like calling best. I might call river as well if you pick up a tell or don't think he can value bet light or you have a weak table image. Default should be to fold though.

all this....

[mtdesmoines 3]

Raise the flop. Our hand is strong but vulnerable and we need to get value early.

[A_Bullets_A 0]

I agree with the other replies. Raise 57 on the flop here. If he's loose/aggressive enough and likes to bluff a lot, this is the kind of flop he might 3 bet you with air.

[shynepo3 0]

you have 57 or 68? You said both hands, they are very different.With 57, raising flop would be fine, calling is position is also fine since he sounds like a guy who will try and bluff too often. Calling or shoving turn is also fine with 57, I prefer calling since he will again on bluff river too often and since you have the BDF, he will pay you off if you do hit flush and shove over river. You shouldn't raise river if he bets it since live players suck at value betting and you have an awful 2 pair here. With 68, raising flop is horrible. Calling is good. On turn, I think raising is marginal/bad. I like calling best. I might call river as well if you pick up a tell or don't think he can value bet light or you have a weak table image. Default should be to fold though.

sorry, 6/8

[shynepo3 0]

Well, he shoved with A/10....and at first, i was like wtf, how do you call/shove that (in my head).....now i can't figure out who played it worse...river bricked...

[Ninja Ace 1]

With 68, raising flop is horrible. Calling is good.

How much value exactly do you assign to top pair no kicker on a draw heavy board in full ring? Or do you just never raise any draws?IMO we hold a drawing hand, not a value hand, which is why I'm in love with raising the flop. We also hold a drawing hand that is ahead of many other draws that are going to ship on the flop, which is even more of a reason to be raising here.Furthermore, our hand is so freaking obvious when it completes our implied odds are shot to hell

[fighter 4]

How much value exactly do you assign to top pair no kicker on a draw heavy board in full ring? Or do you just never raise any draws?IMO we hold a drawing hand, not a value hand, which is why I'm in love with raising the flop. We also hold a drawing hand that is ahead of many other draws that are going to ship on the flop, which is even more of a reason to be raising here.Furthermore, our hand is so freaking obvious when it completes our implied odds are shot to hell

How much value exactly do you assign to top pair no kicker on a draw heavy board in full ring? Or do you just never raise any draws?IMO we hold a drawing hand, not a value hand, which is why I'm in love with raising the flop. We also hold a drawing hand that is ahead of many other draws that are going to ship on the flop, which is even more of a reason to be raising here.Furthermore, our hand is so freaking obvious when it completes our implied odds are shot to hell

........what draws are shoving a 578 rainbow board? Especially in a live game where people generally hate semi bluffingLets assume that the board is two tone (doesn't say, but puts more draws out and I think that is what you are talking about.)I am having trouble finding draws that we are ahead of. We are behind all flush draws (except 23c, 34c,24c,63c. Hands he never has and has to be retard to play that way)We are behind all value hands. So we are raising this board hoping that he is overplaying 56 or 67?Spray and pray might be a reasonable tactic in FPS, In poker it is just retarded.

[DonkSlayer 1]

........what draws are shoving a 578 rainbow board? Especially in a live game where people generally hate semi bluffingLets assume that the board is two tone (doesn't say, but puts more draws out and I think that is what you are talking about.)I am having trouble finding draws that we are ahead of. We are behind all flush draws (except 23c, 34c,24c,63c. Hands he never has and has to be retard to play that way)We are behind all value hands. So we are raising this board hoping that he is overplaying 56 or 67?Spray and pray might be a reasonable tactic in FPS, In poker it is just retarded.

What about taking down the pot right there against 2 overs?

[Ninja Ace 1]

IMO we hold a drawing hand, not a value hand, which is why I'm in love with raising the flop.

We are behind all value hands.

Seems like we have both reached the same conclusion, yet you still don't like semi-bluff raising with a monster draw.Sorry, range balancing is not spray and pray. It's solid poker.

[fighter 4]

Seems like we have both reached the same conclusion, yet you still don't like semi-bluff raising with a monster draw.Sorry, range balancing is not spray and pray. It's solid poker.

how is this a monster draw? lol at punting a BI here with this hand "balancing" or "solid"

[shynepo3 0]

how is this a monster draw? lol at punting a BI here with this hand "balancing" or "solid"

it becomes a monster draw on the turn though...nobody likes raising on the turn here? a call? i think i dont gain anything if i do hit if i dont raise on the turn...at least i have a chance of taking it down with a raise on the turn...does anyone agree that villian's call/shove with a/10 was awful?

[Ninja Ace 1]

how is this a monster draw? lol at punting a BI here with this hand "balancing" or "solid"

LOL at whatever your raising range must be here. I guess a monkey should know to fold most everything when you raise a flop. Or do you prefer raising total air here? Giving zero equity to your bluffs and forcing you to take a raise/fold line which is the biggest spew ever.And for this board, yes, it's the strongest draw you can hold. Your equity is huge against one pair, so it's a monster draw. There is no way that any player considered "lag" could ever be strong enough against our raising range to properly stack off often enough for us to not easily add top pair + and open ender into our raising range... let alone any pair + 8 out draw. Ducy?I mean, I guess if you'd flat with a set or the nuts here, you could flat with this hand as well... but if you do that I'd prefer lighting your gameplan on fire.Now stop trolling and drop the ego

[fighter 4]

Now stop trolling and drop the ego

You picked it. Not only was I trolling, I was also using an ego. Good read, good advice and nice hand.

[Ninja Ace 1]

You picked it. Not only was I trolling, I was also using an ego. Good read, good advice and nice hand.

I hate getting leveled bc I can never figure out where the leveling occurred

[Danege 1]

Ninja, STFU and listen to fighter.He > You at poker.

[fighter 4]

What about taking down the pot right there against 2 overs?

He will make a better hand with 2 overs around 13% of the time we allow him to see a turn. I think we more then make up for this by giving him the chance to bluff unprofitably on the turn. The equity that 2 overs have is very minimal, trying to make them fold should only be a consideration when they don't put money into the pot unimproved (so bluff catching is out). eg. 56 on 36T9 turn. If you have pos and your oppenent likely holdings include high cards like AK,AQ,AJ, he won't bluff rivers and doesn't c/r turn often, betting turn for protection becomes a real option. It also opens up the possibility to barrel river so kind of different since in the hand in here, very few people will call flop raise, fold turn barrel as often as the example. So kind of different but I hope you see point.

it becomes a monster draw on the turn though...nobody likes raising on the turn here? a call? i think i dont gain anything if i do hit if i dont raise on the turn...at least i have a chance of taking it down with a raise on the turn...does anyone agree that villian's call/shove with a/10 was awful?

Raising the turn with this hand on the turn isn't that bad. You still need to be representing something that he can't beat. Not alot of people slowplay on this type of flop because of its draw heavy nature. If you are only representing draws that picked up extra equity like 9xcc , Txcc (if flop had flush draw) 86dd, 9dxd, AKdd and T8. He is making a thin but correct call. So villain's call could be bad or good, depends. Your raise could be bad or good, depends.

[mtdesmoines 3]

OK so now that the cards have been changed (WTF), I think raising the turn is bad. If we FLOP a combo draw and pair, we're going to "spray" this pot. However, since we only picked up our flush draw on the turn ("only" meaning we only have one pull at our flush draw -- the river card), and have seen the villain follow our action into the pot, we can assume he's going to be difficult to fold. Which is to our advantage if we hit and our disadvantage when we haven't yet. So we need to act accordingly. I think we call the turn bet and call the turn raise and just get it in on the river if we hit, because villain seems unfoldable (so our implied odds are high, and our chances of pushing him off while holding an unmade hand are low), and our diamond draw is disguised, so villains are likely to get it in anyway. Hope that makes sense.

[shynepo3 0]

I guess i should`ve called instead....waste...honestly though, had he not caught the 10, he most likely bets the turn. And folds to my raise...sigh**...but then i push out a hand i`m beating...makes sense...