Right Line To Play With Qq?

[CorvairShaggy 5]

O.k. Full ring but table was about 15 mins old, so did not fill up yet, and had a few players come and go for a few hands. Must have been too slow/not enough action. BB and me had had a few hands together already, and a few hands before we got into a 3-bet/4-bet PF, in which he folded. In the 15 mins I was playing, when I went to showdown I always had high cards, and played hands like I was only playing high cards, so therefore I assumed he made me for a high card/premium hand player. He was playing tighter than me, and I do not recall him ever going to showdown with rags. He was already at $35~ when I sat down. I did not want to scare him off again PF. I was trying to slowplay OOP. With the brick on the turn, I was thinking he had 10x(JQKA?) or flush draw. (I did not see him having 78, but could have been a possibility) I decided to make a move there, but did not expect a insta-shove back. Could I have played this any better/worse up to this point, and how would you handle the insta-shove??PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (40bb-100bb)(Full Ring)(3 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comBB ($33.50)Button ($26.55)Hero (SB) ($27.70)Preflop: Hero is SB with Q, Q1 fold, Hero bets $0.50, BB raises to $1.20, Hero calls $0.70Flop: ($2.40) 3, 9, 10(2 players)Hero checks, BB bets $1.70, Hero calls $1.70Turn: ($5.80) 6(2 players)Hero checks, BB bets $4.20, Hero raises to $10, BB raises to $30.60 (All-In) Hero ???

[drubes24 0]

Fold. You are beat. I know it is hard to get away from, but you are most likely beat here.

[mtdesmoines 3]

We're 4 betting to around $4.50 PF. After that, we can figure this out.

[CorvairShaggy 5]

I was worried that I was going to scare him off if I 3/4 bet him again. (But he may also thought I was bs'ing and called??) I was trying to get value, but usually I hang myself when I slowplay big hands. So It is o.k. to 3/4 bet in bunches when need be??

[Biff Goods 0]

We're 4 betting to around $4.50 PF. After that, we can figure this out.

this...

[rrumsey 0]

i dont mind the preflop play, but we have to lead the flop 100% imo, you can get crying calls from AK and junk, and you really dont wanna give villain a free turn. also i hate c/r the flop we are kinda turning our hand into a bluff. C/r the turn just seems to be for no reason, i mean nothing that you beat is calling that, unless he bluff shoves. i mean you made the hand a lot harder on yourself then it had to. If we knew villain was a barrel-holic, then this isnt a bad line, but you have no idea of what v is doing so you have to give him credit until you know otherwise. the more i think about it, being OOP, we probably should be 4 betting this. but if you play it better (or have reads) postflop we can just call here too

[CorvairShaggy 5]

O.k. So if OOP either 3/4 bet PF (best option unless reads tell you otherwise), or leadout a low flop like this one, and see what happens. Checking OOP is just setting myself up for a hanging against unknown villains. BUT do you worry about 3/4 bet PF the same villian too many times? Forces villian to play more aggr. and forces you to tighten up and play a tighter game?? I guess you always have the option to leave and go to another table.I am trying to get more value out of hands because I am finding that I am being aggressive and winning, but feel like I could be leaving money out there. BUT, when I slowplay bigger hands (but not the nuts), I seem to get myself into bad spots. I see now that the turn was bad, because even though I had top pair, he could have had str8, 2-pair, etc. possible set, and even if I hit another q I did not have any real opportunity to turn a better hand. Should have been more aggro. pre with just TP.On a side note, I made the suicide call, and he had 10d 3d. Kinda trashy to 3-bet light, but we were 3-handed. Lucked out and river was a 6, but this week when I do make a stupid play, I have been catching miracles. One more side note. Wanted to say thanks to you guys (rrumsey, mtdesmoines, biff goods, ninja ace, base jester, and a few others I have forgot). I dropped down to .10/.25 as I think rrumsey suggested, and had a bad run, but took a week off to read more, watch more, study more. I started with $25 5 nights ago, and currently at $155. I know this is a minuscule amount of money, but is a accomplishment for me in that I have 5x my roll, and have averaged $20/hr over about 10 hours at .10/.25. Things just seem to be clicking more, and I have been getting better at avoiding bad spots, and stopping myself before doing something nitty. I have lucked out a few times, and got beat a few times, but feel like I am making alot better plays and understand when I lose why I did lose. (I had an idea about how bad I played this hand, but still need a little kick/input from time to time ) Just wanted to say Thanks!!

[rrumsey 0]

O.k. So if OOP either 3/4 bet PF (best option unless reads tell you otherwise), or leadout a low flop like this one, and see what happens. Checking OOP is just setting myself up for a hanging against unknown villains. BUT do you worry about 3/4 bet PF the same villian too many times? Forces villian to play more aggr. and forces you to tighten up and play a tighter game?? I guess you always have the option to leave and go to another table.I am trying to get more value out of hands because I am finding that I am being aggressive and winning, but feel like I could be leaving money out there. BUT, when I slowplay bigger hands (but not the nuts), I seem to get myself into bad spots. I see now that the turn was bad, because even though I had top pair, he could have had str8, 2-pair, etc. possible set, and even if I hit another q I did not have any real opportunity to turn a better hand. Should have been more aggro. pre with just TP.On a side note, I made the suicide call, and he had 10d 3d. Kinda trashy to 3-bet light, but we were 3-handed. Lucked out and river was a 6, but this week when I do make a stupid play, I have been catching miracles. One more side note. Wanted to say thanks to you guys (rrumsey, mtdesmoines, biff goods, ninja ace, base jester, and a few others I have forgot). I dropped down to .10/.25 as I think rrumsey suggested, and had a bad run, but took a week off to read more, watch more, study more. I started with $25 5 nights ago, and currently at $155. I know this is a minuscule amount of money, but is a accomplishment for me in that I have 5x my roll, and have averaged $20/hr over about 10 hours at .10/.25. Things just seem to be clicking more, and I have been getting better at avoiding bad spots, and stopping myself before doing something nitty. I have lucked out a few times, and got beat a few times, but feel like I am making alot better plays and understand when I lose why I did lose. (I had an idea about how bad I played this hand, but still need a little kick/input from time to time ) Just wanted to say Thanks!!

good for you man! just remember to manage your roll son! but nice job recovering!

[Ninja Ace 1]

this line is kind of terrible tbh... with any thinking player you have telegraphed your hand... and you've taken the strongest line in holdem with a one pair hand (that you actually want to show down... a made hand bluff is somewhat different)I don't mind not 4betting queens as it's one of my favorite hands to flat for trapping and pot control purposes simultaneously... but if you're going to c-r, do it on the flop... and for gods sake don't make that mini check raise... you should be shoving over top if you're going to c-r the turn.

[CorvairShaggy 5]

Thanks guys. Looks like I went for the pencil sharpener instead of playing like I normally do. Normally, I would have took it down PF with 4 bet, or c/r flop. This case 4 bet PF would have worked, because he would have to be a complete idiot to call/shove 10 3 diamonds. Basically I got lucky here on a idiotic line, but I learned I have not graduated to trick plays yet.Thanks Again!!

[shynepo3 0]

yeah, 4bet pre and get in it hopefully...3 handed, qq is close to the nuts..so Corvair, do you find .10/.25 a good fit for learning the online game? i've read your posts in the past, and we have similiar poker histories (played on and off for a long time, recently started playing against but taking it seriously)....i tried online last month, but got my ass handed to me in a number of different limits ranging from $1/2 (which was expected) all the way down to .02/.05 (which wasn't lol)....i really want to give it a go again, because i think online is the best way to improve my game...did u try lower than 10/25 cent? a bit higher? also, do you play 6max/ or fr?

[shynepo3 0]

this line is kind of terrible tbh... with any thinking player you have telegraphed your hand... and you've taken the strongest line in holdem with a one pair hand (that you actually want to show down... a made hand bluff is somewhat different)I don't mind not 4betting queens as it's one of my favorite hands to flat for trapping and pot control purposes simultaneously... but if you're going to c-r, do it on the flop... and for gods sake don't make that mini check raise... you should be shoving over top if you're going to c-r the turn.

when u say that,do you mean he's basically saying he has an overpair? cause hero could easily have 8/7 suited right? especially with the min raise...i'm a bit suprised that villain shoved with 10/3....an overpair was the only hand he was beating..

[Ninja Ace 1]

It's 2 pair blind versus blind so basically he should never be folding... when I say telegraphed i mean, you need to beat aces to continue.Also, I didn't notice the minraise pre... please for fux sake don't do that

[mtdesmoines 3]

It's 2 pair blind versus blind so basically he should never be folding... when I say telegraphed i mean, you need to beat aces to continue.Also, I didn't notice the minraise pre... please for fux sake don't do that

Please people .. minraising pre is automatically pricing in ATC and is horrible.

[shynepo3 0]

It's 2 pair blind versus blind so basically he should never be folding... when I say telegraphed i mean, you need to beat aces to continue.Also, I didn't notice the minraise pre... please for fux sake don't do that

but, shoving, for the villian, i woudnt' be happy...wouldn't u rahter call on the turn, (if you are villian)...and i fold to the shove on the turn if i'm hero...correct move or bad?

[Ninja Ace 1]

but, shoving, for the villian, i woudnt' be happy...wouldn't u rahter call on the turn, (if you are villian)...and i fold to the shove on the turn if i'm hero...correct move or bad?

Both bad cuz you're both pot committed and have showdown value... commit stacks there and then

[CorvairShaggy 5]

It's 2 pair blind versus blind so basically he should never be folding... when I say telegraphed i mean, you need to beat aces to continue.Also, I didn't notice the minraise pre... please for fux sake don't do that

I know, I know. My shock collar goes off every time, but I min-raised for the hopes he would 3-bet me, which happened. From the second I saw QQ I decided to slowplay to pick up some more chips. I 4 bet villain 2 hands before, and he folded, so I was trying to get him to inflate the pot (which happened). Flop came very pretty to me. I was hoping he had A 10/ K10, etc. Like I said earlier, I was trying to slowplay, but did not expect the shove on turn. I made a stupid call and got lucky. In this case, even if I c/r the flop, he was pushing anyway, because he just got lucky. I am trying to find ways to get more value out of hands, but I guess I need to wait until I hit the nuts on flop, boat, nut flush, etc. before I start trying tricky goofy shit.

yeah, 4bet pre and get in it hopefully...3 handed, qq is close to the nuts..so Corvair, do you find .10/.25 a good fit for learning the online game? i've read your posts in the past, and we have similiar poker histories (played on and off for a long time, recently started playing against but taking it seriously)....i tried online last month, but got my ass handed to me in a number of different limits ranging from $1/2 (which was expected) all the way down to .02/.05 (which wasn't lol)....i really want to give it a go again, because i think online is the best way to improve my game...did u try lower than 10/25 cent? a bit higher? also, do you play 6max/ or fr?

I started playing again online with $10 and less SNGs and .50/1 6-max cash games at Cake Poker. After 2 months of reading here and PokerVT, the Super-Turbo 6-max got really easy, but I was getting killed in cash games. Last month I moved to PokerStars, and played same levels, but same results cash game. I still just wasn't there yet. I think rrumsey suggested go lower stakes. I tried super micros .1/.2, put I just couldn't wrap my head around it. I moved up to .10/.25 FR and found that to be a perfect fit for me. I am still learning how to play properly, and still donk off from time to time, and "go for the pencil sharpener", but at least now I know when I F-up, and have learned a few proper moves. It has been a profitable week, but then again I do this for fun. If you are needing to live off this then I would not suggest .10/.25, but for learning to play online at your level you should do really well here. I will say generally there is not a whole lot off bluffing here. If someone shoves, they have it. Things I have learned is raising 3x-4x pre generally runs off trash, but will keep Ax, Kx hands. 7-10 times if just an A comes on board, and you are in position, 1/2 pot bet will take it down many times. Wouldn't hurt to get poker tracker as there are some players that play this level that will start with the min buy in, and only play AA KK and shove PF. They must play a shitload of tables for this to be profitable, but I run across them pretty regularly. Hope this helps.

[shynepo3 0]

I know, I know. My shock collar goes off every time, but I min-raised for the hopes he would 3-bet me, which happened. From the second I saw QQ I decided to slowplay to pick up some more chips. I 4 bet villain 2 hands before, and he folded, so I was trying to get him to inflate the pot (which happened). Flop came very pretty to me. I was hoping he had A 10/ K10, etc. Like I said earlier, I was trying to slowplay, but did not expect the shove on turn. I made a stupid call and got lucky. In this case, even if I c/r the flop, he was pushing anyway, because he just got lucky. I am trying to find ways to get more value out of hands, but I guess I need to wait until I hit the nuts on flop, boat, nut flush, etc. before I start trying tricky goofy shit.I started playing again online with $10 and less SNGs and .50/1 6-max cash games at Cake Poker. After 2 months of reading here and PokerVT, the Super-Turbo 6-max got really easy, but I was getting killed in cash games. Last month I moved to PokerStars, and played same levels, but same results cash game. I still just wasn't there yet. I think rrumsey suggested go lower stakes. I tried super micros .1/.2, put I just couldn't wrap my head around it. I moved up to .10/.25 FR and found that to be a perfect fit for me. I am still learning how to play properly, and still donk off from time to time, and "go for the pencil sharpener", but at least now I know when I F-up, and have learned a few proper moves. It has been a profitable week, but then again I do this for fun. If you are needing to live off this then I would not suggest .10/.25, but for learning to play online at your level you should do really well here. I will say generally there is not a whole lot off bluffing here. If someone shoves, they have it. Things I have learned is raising 3x-4x pre generally runs off trash, but will keep Ax, Kx hands. 7-10 times if just an A comes on board, and you are in position, 1/2 pot bet will take it down many times. Wouldn't hurt to get poker tracker as there are some players that play this level that will start with the min buy in, and only play AA KK and shove PF. They must play a shitload of tables for this to be profitable, but I run across them pretty regularly. Hope this helps.

what do you mean the pencil sharpener? lol, no, i dont need to live off it (i have a job), but i wanted to eventually be like a p/t job...i usually play 2/5 live, and was doing very well until two months ago...now i'm bleeding all my winnings from the first 3 months of the year, and will hit even if things dont change...i find online to be COMPLETELY different, but i do feel if you're a good online player, you'll make more money than playing live...but it's a grind..and playing 10/25 cent will definitely take a LOOONG time to make as much as live 2/5...unless you multi table...thanks for the suggestions

[CorvairShaggy 5]

what do you mean the pencil sharpener? lol, no, i dont need to live off it (i have a job), but i wanted to eventually be like a p/t job...i usually play 2/5 live, and was doing very well until two months ago...now i'm bleeding all my winnings from the first 3 months of the year, and will hit even if things dont change...i find online to be COMPLETELY different, but i do feel if you're a good online player, you'll make more money than playing live...but it's a grind..and playing 10/25 cent will definitely take a LOOONG time to make as much as live 2/5...unless you multi table...thanks for the suggestions

QUOTE (BaseJester)"Mixing it up" doesn't magically rationalize anything you do. It's like you walk up to a pencil sharpener, pencil in hand, and think, "Everyone expects me to sharpen this pencil, but I'm going to mix it up." Then you whip out your **** and sharpen that instead and yell, "Ha ha, bitches, you never saw that coming!" Well, no, they didn't. But you still have a dull pencil and bleeding dick.

Yes, I can see how online you could actually make it a side job. You could multi-table small stakes or play the bigger ones. This week I have put in about 15 hours (session anywhere from 15-30 mins lunch at work, to 1 1/2 hour at night)at .10/.25 20-50bb ($5 min-$12.50 table max buy-in), and I have made about $175 profit as of today, and I started with $25 deposit last Sunday. Single table, but I 2 table sngs, and have been getting killed there except for the DONs (Double or nothing.) If I left the Tourneys alone, I could have went out for sushi this week . I fell like I did get completely lucky on about $50 or so, because teh way I played I should have lost, but that is poker. I'll try to see if I can export some sessions via poker Tracker and send them too you. You can review those and get a good idea of how they play there. Ohh another thing. some players at that level completely ignore board texture, so watch out big bluffing str8s and flushes. I got hit earlier with that twice by 2 different players, but was able to recover.

[shynepo3 0]

i remember that quote...it's hilarious...i kept laughing when i first read it and even showed it to my wife...but yeah, feel free to send me anything...any help is good...maybe i'll deposit this week and try to grind it out for a bit..i dont have hem/poker tracker though...i did have a pirated version, but it was buggy, so i uninstalled it