Bad Timing Pre-flop Shove With 40bb? Scoop 26-l

[CorvairShaggy 5]

This was my first BIG MTT tourney. Just wondering if this was the correct play at this time. Other small tourneys/sng I would have done this, but just wondering if I jumped the gun a bit:PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 11 Tournament, 150/300 Blinds 40 Ante (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comMP1 (t33685)MP2 (t22500)Hero (MP3) (t12330)CO (t11940)Button (t15450)SB (t16675)BB (t14165)UTG (t39680)UTG+1 (t5685)Hero's M: 15.22Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A, K4 folds, Hero bets t750, 2 folds, SB raises to t2250, 1 fold, Hero raises to t12290 (All-In), SB calls t10040Flop: (t25240) 7, 8, Q(2 players, 1 all-in)Turn: (t25240) K(2 players, 1 all-in)River: (t25240) Q(2 players, 1 all-in)Total pot: t25240Results:SB had A, Q (three of a kind, Queens).Hero had A, K (two pair, Kings and Queens).Outcome: SB won t25240Should I have flatted here instead of shoved? At the time average stack was about $19k. If I flatted and he bet 1/2 pot or more on flop, I would have folded. Am I being results oriented, or did I make the right play? At the time I thought it was correct, but after I thought about it, I probably should not have shoved pre with 40 BB. Player that I shoved on was tight (VPIP of 12 over 41 hands).Thanks!

[TrueAce13 18]

horrible. you should quit poker forever

[SwolyswoND 1]

So you got it AIPF as a massive favorite and you are questioning your play?

[hartman72 0]

You played it fine, if villain had AJ here, I have a feeling you wouldn't have posted this

[CorvairShaggy 5]

So you got it AIPF as a massive favorite and you are questioning your play?

That is what I thought. He was tight and our stack sizes were the same, so I figured if he called me is was going to be a coin-flip. So, basically even in the big 16k man MTT it is never wrong to shove pre with this even though you feel it is a 50/50 shot? That was my main concern. Against a looser player, short stacked player you could put them on wider ranges, so I would not have questioned this, but this guy was playing very tight so I had him on what he had or big PP.

[cdipierr 0]

That is what I thought. He was tight and our stack sizes were the same, so I figured if he called me is was going to be a coin-flip. So, basically even in the big 16k man MTT it is never wrong to shove pre with this even though you feel it is a 50/50 shot? That was my main concern. Against a looser player, short stacked player you could put them on wider ranges, so I would not have questioned this, but this guy was playing very tight so I had him on what he had or big PP.

I think you're generalizing. Saying "it's never wrong to flip" is probably incorrect if you have a large stack and it's early in the tournament (though there are some good players that advocate it always being correct even early). But in this case, you have an M of 15, the only hands you're in trouble against are AA and KK, neither of which are likely. So you're 50/50 at worst. As it turns out, your read is off here and you're really 70/30. You lost, which sucks, but move on.

[cashman 0]

I think you're generalizing. Saying "it's never wrong to flip" is probably incorrect if you have a large stack and it's early in the tournament (though there are some good players that advocate it always being correct even early). But in this case, you have an M of 15, the only hands you're in trouble against are AA and KK, neither of which are likely. So you're 50/50 at worst. As it turns out, your read is off here and you're really 70/30. You lost, which sucks, but move on.

I think it's usually wrong to flip this early in the tournament and with this many chips. I am sure that we have all pushed in situations like this, but I don't think it is always the right play. He repopped you big so you can assume that he is calling you're all in. Do you really want to risk your stack w/Ace high? I know it is a beautiful hand preflop, but it is not a made hand. Also, I think AA and KK is certainly within his range based on the action. Turns out he was a donk and overplayed his AQ, but 8x out of 10 you are behind and 2x or 3x times out of 10 you are dominated. You happened to get that rare situation where a guy is playing like an idiot and you're ahead. I would put his range on 1010 thru AA, AK.

[TrueAce13 18]

Never ever fold AK at this stage of micro buyin mtt. Ever.

[cdipierr 0]

I think it's usually wrong to flip this early in the tournament and with this many chips. I am sure that we have all pushed in situations like this, but I don't think it is always the right play. He repopped you big so you can assume that he is calling you're all in. Do you really want to risk your stack w/Ace high? I know it is a beautiful hand preflop, but it is not a made hand. Also, I think AA and KK is certainly within his range based on the action. Turns out he was a donk and overplayed his AQ, but 8x out of 10 you are behind and 2x or 3x times out of 10 you are dominated. You happened to get that rare situation where a guy is playing like an idiot and you're ahead. I would put his range on 1010 thru AA, AK.

Wow, this is bad on so many levels. First off, it's not early in the tournament. Blinds are 150/300/40. This is mid-tournament range.Second, our M is 15 and we're below chip average. Our goal needs to be to double up.Lastly, his range is definitely wider than TT->AA, AK. Aside from the obvious AQ in his range, I think 88, 99 are possible as well. Remember AA and KK are less likely because we hold one of the A and one of the K. None the less, if we use PokerStove and only give him the range you specified, we're 43.3% against that range. At the point where hero shoves, there's 3660 in the pot. If you assume villain is calling 100% of the time, this means that we're betting 12290 to win 15950, which is about 1.3:1. This is basically the exact right odds with your tight range. If we add AQ to his range, then we're 51.6% to win and it's mathematically a no brainer. Add to this that you actually do have some FE. If the guy was making this play with TT, he might well fold.Edited ... didn't see hero had AKs, thought it was AKo. That makes the math on the tight range correct rather than close.

[CorvairShaggy 5]

I think it's usually wrong to flip this early in the tournament and with this many chips. I am sure that we have all pushed in situations like this, but I don't think it is always the right play. He repopped you big so you can assume that he is calling you're all in. Do you really want to risk your stack w/Ace high? I know it is a beautiful hand preflop, but it is not a made hand. Also, I think AA and KK is certainly within his range based on the action. Turns out he was a donk and overplayed his AQ, but 8x out of 10 you are behind and 2x or 3x times out of 10 you are dominated. You happened to get that rare situation where a guy is playing like an idiot and you're ahead. I would put his range on 1010 thru AA, AK.

I was thinking about it the same (afterwards) the way you are. I also had his range right where you had it based on how tight he had played.(his VPIP was 12 with 0 PR and 0 AF over 41 hands) Here I was 2 1/2 hours into it, with about 8k people gone so I assumed that most of the donkeys were gone. (Well, I was still there ) I guess that the OPTIMAL situation would have been to shove against a looser player or a short stacked player, but as some of you posted here it is fine to shove here and just take your chances. I am trying to work out the "marginal gambles" out of my play. I also could care less about how the hand played out. I am only worried about PRE-FLOP play here. If I was like 15-20 BB then I would not have questioned this either, as I know when you get to this level you are definetly shoving. But, at 40 BB with 8k people left and 5k away from the money?? Ohh well, I guess there is not a clear answer here. I can see Ace/Swoly/cd's points, but cashman also makes a good point too.

[CorvairShaggy 5]

First off, it's not early in the tournament. Blinds are 150/300/40. This is mid-tournament range.Second, our M is 15 and we're below chip average. Our goal needs to be to double up.

That was my initial thought. I am below average halfway thru. I knew he was tight, but how much longer could I realistically wait to catch something as good as this?? Another 3-4 orbits and another level, then be forced to shove with K10s with 15 BBs??? That was my initial thought. Maybe because I lost, I was thinking that my shove could have waited. If I won, then I would not have wasted time and thought I made a great play. But longterm, is this the best play at this position in a big MTT??

[cdipierr 0]

That was my initial thought. I am below average halfway thru. I knew he was tight, but how much longer could I realistically wait to catch something as good as this?? Another 3-4 orbits and another level, then be forced to shove with K10s with 15 BBs??? That was my initial thought. Maybe because I lost, I was thinking that my shove could have waited. If I won, then I would not have wasted time and thought I made a great play. But longterm, is this the best play at this position in a big MTT??

I don't understand why you keep phrasing your question "in a big MTT". There's really no difference in how big the MTT is. You're playing for the final table. If you limp along, and somehow manage to fold hands like this, you may sneak into the money. But this is not a profitable way to play MTTs.

[TrueAce13 18]

I was thinking about it the same (afterwards) the way you are. I also had his range right where you had it based on how tight he had played.(his VPIP was 12 with 0 PR and 0 AF over 41 hands) Here I was 2 1/2 hours into it, with about 8k people gone so I assumed that most of the donkeys were gone. (Well, I was still there ) I guess that the OPTIMAL situation would have been to shove against a looser player or a short stacked player, but as some of you posted here it is fine to shove here and just take your chances. I am trying to work out the "marginal gambles" out of my play. I also could care less about how the hand played out. I am only worried about PRE-FLOP play here. If I was like 15-20 BB then I would not have questioned this either, as I know when you get to this level you are definetly shoving. But, at 40 BB with 8k people left and 5k away from the money?? Ohh well, I guess there is not a clear answer here. I can see Ace/Swoly/cd's points, but cashman also makes a good point too.

No. His advice isn't good at all. You do have a lot of chips, but in rando donk. who 3bets that big, usually does not have the toppest of his range (QQ-AA). Yes, he might have it sometimes, but not nearly as much as he is going to have underpairs, and worse Ax type hands. And sometimes you will even see the nice KQs, and KJs. Not most the donks were gone. A lot of donks can make it deep into mtts by just luck and variance being on their side. But there is pretty much never a spot. HU in a pot. In an 11$ mtt that you should fold here. You will be losing a lot of equity and most likely are giong to be folding the best hand. Also, in mtts, your gonna have to flip take flips. It happens. So folding here b/c your "scared" of a flip is not good.Get it in, you played it fine. Stop being results oriented. About 95% of the people in this tournament suck. Take advantage of spots like this

[rrumsey 0]

dude cooler happen, if you can handle that then you can handle playing poker.

[lurbz 2]

You should have raise/folded preflop