2/5 Live

[shynepo3 0]

The raiser is a good player, whom knows that I think he's a good player...loose with his preflop range, but that's his only fault and probably makes up for it with his post flop play. I think it's important to know that he knows that I respect his play...Hero is in BB with J 7 clubs3 limpers, sb completes, hero checksflop - 355 6 8 with 2 clubssb checkshero bets $20 (stack is $600 - i think i should have check raised here) mp calls $20 (has hero covered)villain/raiser raises to $100 (stack is $200 behind)sb foldshero????Does it still feel like 15 outs? MP's call doesnt really mean anything..he's a loose player, and would raise with a good/decent hand, so he probably at most, has a 7 or mid/top pair. He's most likely folding regardless what hero does.

[Ninja Ace 1]

Shoveski... i know you have a deep stack behind you and that's scary and all... but he's pretty much only calling with the nuts there, which you still have good equity against... and the amounts you pick up on the shove uncontested make up for it

[GOCUBSGO 77]

Shoving here everytime

[Donnie Ray 0]

Shoving here everytime

+1

[shynepo3 0]

Shoveski... i know you have a deep stack behind you and that's scary and all... but he's pretty much only calling with the nuts there, which you still have good equity against... and the amounts you pick up on the shove uncontested make up for it

well, he's not only calling with the nuts...lol (cause that's what i did and he called)....but dont u think you may be against another flush draw? if i shove, it's only 200 more to him, into a 495 pot....that's about the right odds to call with a flush draw...

[mtdesmoines 3]

Make it $275

[shynepo3 0]

Make it $275

why that instead of shoving? to make it look like to villain i want to get more $$ into the pot from the MP, and hopefully he'll fold?also, do you guys lead out here on the flop or check raise?

[Ninja Ace 1]

if i shove, it's only 200 more to him, into a 495 pot

what?You said you had 600 behind and the caller had you covered... which should give him no where near the right odds to call with anything but a made monster, and that the raiser was short... I was talking about the deep stack player only calling with the nuts

[shynepo3 0]

no no...the raiser, who took it to 120, is a short stack...the mp, who has me covered, just called my original 20...i'm not too worried about him, because he would definitely have raised my bet with a set/straight, since the board is very wet..so when we go all in, are we under the assumption that villain will call his last 200 and that is what we want? what range do we assign him?

[rrumsey 0]

yah this is a huge equity spot we have so many outs and dont have to worry about being on the dumb end of it, ship

[mtdesmoines 3]

why that instead of shoving? to make it look like to villain i want to get more $$ into the pot from the MP, and hopefully he'll fold?also, do you guys lead out here on the flop or check raise?

what do we gain shoving $575 into a $140 pot?

[GOCUBSGO 77]

what do we gain shoving $575 into a $140 pot?

Isn't it really the same? I mean if we make it $275, the villian is either folding or getting it all in anyways since he only has $200 after the initial raise. If we make it $275 we definitely aren't folding even if MP comes along or raises us. I think we are getting it all in eventually on this hand anyways, so I don't see a real difference in $275 vs shoving.

[shynepo3 0]

what do we gain shoving $575 into a $140 pot?

Isn't it really the same? I mean if we make it $275, the villian is either folding or getting it all in anyways since he only has $200 after the initial raise. If we make it $275 we definitely aren't folding even if MP comes along or raises us. I think we are getting it all in eventually on this hand anyways, so I don't see a real difference in $275 vs shoving.

i think there is a big emphasis on mp, who has the biggest stack. but tbh, like ninja said above, he only calls with the nuts, and that's extremely unlikely with his flat call. he's loose, but not a terrible player.villian only has about 200 left....but essentially shove/or or 275 is obviously the same. i guess 275 protects us a bit, in the really really rare case that mp played his had awful and ends up waking up with a monster.what i dont really get is how no one thinks that maybe villian has a higher flush draw here....and if he does, then we only have 6 outs. if he has a straight already, thats 9 outs. a set would be 14 outs....taking these all into account, are you still happy about shoving? best case scenario would be a set. any other hand, like a 7 or two pair or less, he wouldn't raise/ or raise that much. i know there is a chance he could have something like 3/4 clubs, in which we'd have him crushed....knowing all of this, there is pretty much almost no fold equity...so best case scenario would be the set, which would be like 14 outs (i might be wrong, but i'm assuming 8 of the other clubs, not 9, since 1 of them makes a pair on board, and the 6 outs for the straight).....but taking the worse case snenarios/ranges (6 outs for a high fd, 9 for a straight, and 14 for the set,), we probably have an average of 10 outs, or we can make it 11 due to the small chance he has 3/4 clubs or lower fd....that's about 40 - 44% to hit? we only have about $25 invested at this point.....the pot will essentially be $365 (25 preflop, 20 + 20 +320), and we'd be calling $300 - i'm including villain's whole stack, because there is no way he's folding at this point...i know i saw his hand, but when you actually think about the hand, those 3 hands only make sense (higher fd, set, or made straight)....nobody thinks folding isn't a bad idea?is my analysis way off?

[SuperJon 175]

i think there is a big emphasis on mp, who has the biggest stack. but tbh, like ninja said above, he only calls with the nuts, and that's extremely unlikely with his flat call. he's loose, but not a terrible player.villian only has about 200 left....but essentially shove/or or 275 is obviously the same. i guess 275 protects us a bit, in the really really rare case that mp played his had awful and ends up waking up with a monster.what i dont really get is how no one thinks that maybe villian has a higher flush draw here....and if he does, then we only have 6 outs. if he has a straight already, thats 9 outs. a set would be 14 outs....taking these all into account, are you still happy about shoving? best case scenario would be a set. any other hand, like a 7 or two pair or less, he wouldn't raise/ or raise that much. i know there is a chance he could have something like 3/4 clubs, in which we'd have him crushed....knowing all of this, there is pretty much almost no fold equity...so best case scenario would be the set, which would be like 14 outs (i might be wrong, but i'm assuming 8 of the other clubs, not 9, since 1 of them makes a pair on board, and the 6 outs for the straight).....but taking the worse case snenarios/ranges (6 outs for a high fd, 9 for a straight, and 14 for the set,), we probably have an average of 10 outs, or we can make it 11 due to the small chance he has 3/4 clubs or lower fd....that's about 40 - 44% to hit? we only have about $25 invested at this point.....the pot will essentially be $365 (25 preflop, 20 + 20 +320), and we'd be calling $300 - i'm including villain's whole stack, because there is no way he's folding at this point...i know i saw his hand, but when you actually think about the hand, those 3 hands only make sense (higher fd, set, or made straight)....nobody thinks folding isn't a bad idea?is my analysis way off?

So you pushed, and he called with a higher flush draw and you lost.Is that right?If so, stop being results oriented.

[shynepo3 0]

So you pushed, and he called with a higher flush draw and you lost.Is that right?If so, stop being results oriented.

So you pushed, and he called with a higher flush draw and you lost.Is that right?If so, stop being results oriented.

ok, but did u read what i wrote? i know, but honestly, what is he raising with here? i told you he's a good player..he's not raising with a pair..he either has 1 of the 4 hands (set, straight, higher fd, or lower fd - this being the least likely)...i dont know, the more i think about it, the more it seems a marginal shove/call at best...he's not going to bet 1/3 of his stack and fold to a shove (cause he's a good player), only hand i have crushed is a lower fd/straight combo.....he had a fd, q8 clubs...i hit my straight, but he said to me afterwards that i should've folded..and it made me think..

[SuperJon 175]

ok, but did u read what i wrote? i know, but honestly, what is he raising with here? i told you he's a good player..he's not raising with a pair..he either has 1 of the 4 hands (set, straight, higher fd, or lower fd - this being the least likely)...i dont know, the more i think about it, the more it seems a marginal shove/call at best...he's not going to bet 1/3 of his stack and fold to a shove (cause he's a good player), only hand i have crushed is a lower fd/straight combo.....he had a fd, q8 clubs...i hit my straight, but he said to me afterwards that i should've folded..and it made me think..

So you pushed, and he called with a higher flush draw and you lost.Is that right?If so, stop being results oriented.

[Ninja Ace 1]

ok, but did u read what i wrote? i know, but honestly, what is he raising with here? i told you he's a good player..he's not raising with a pair..he either has 1 of the 4 hands (set, straight, higher fd, or lower fd - this being the least likely)...i dont know, the more i think about it, the more it seems a marginal shove/call at best...he's not going to bet 1/3 of his stack and fold to a shove (cause he's a good player), only hand i have crushed is a lower fd/straight combo.....he had a fd, q8 clubs...i hit my straight, but he said to me afterwards that i should've folded..and it made me think..

see, but now he knows you know he has that range so when you shove next time you could only have the nuts so he can safely fold making the proper adjustment a shove

[mtdesmoines 3]

ok, but did u read what i wrote? i know, but honestly, what is he raising with here? i told you he's a good player..he's not raising with a pair..he either has 1 of the 4 hands (set, straight, higher fd, or lower fd - this being the least likely)...i dont know, the more i think about it, the more it seems a marginal shove/call at best...he's not going to bet 1/3 of his stack and fold to a shove (cause he's a good player), only hand i have crushed is a lower fd/straight combo.....he had a fd, q8 clubs...i hit my straight, but he said to me afterwards that i should've folded..and it made me think..

don't listen to advice from someone you just beat

[GOCUBSGO 77]

don't listen to advice from someone you just beat

lol +1

[shynepo3 0]

ugggh...forget it...

[GOCUBSGO 77]

ugggh...forget it...

You are only questioning your play because you know what the villain had because you were in the hand. That is being results oriented. This is a profitable spot to shove/reraise, and you should be doing it every time in this particular situation. If he ends up having a higher flush draw oh well move on. It's not like you don't have other outs. Everybody sees the point you are making and yes it is possible for him to have a higher flush draw, but is he going to have it enough of the time that we are considering folding? And the answer is a definite NO.

[shynepo3 0]

You are only questioning your play because you know what the villain had because you were in the hand. That is being results oriented. This is a profitable spot to shove/reraise, and you should be doing it every time in this particular situation. If he ends up having a higher flush draw oh well move on. It's not like you don't have other outs. Everybody sees the point you are making and yes it is possible for him to have a higher flush draw, but is he going to have it enough of the time that we are considering folding? And the answer is a definite NO.

Against most opponents, even multiple oppenents in the same spot, yes, i do agree with you, that it would be a profitable situation to push. However, against this one opponent, whom i have described as good, and an excellent hand reader btw, i think his range narrows considerably when he makes than raise against a bet and a call. Like i said, i would have to say 95 of the time he holds either a set, flush draw, or made straight. Knowing that he could have either of these 3 hands equally, 95% of the time, is it still profitable to push?

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

Shoveski... i know you have a deep stack behind you and that's scary and all... but he's pretty much only calling with the nuts there, which you still have good equity against... and the amounts you pick up on the shove uncontested make up for it

This....and calling out incorrect usage of "whom" in the op.

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

what i dont really get is how no one thinks that maybe villian has a higher flush draw here....

He calls with nothing better than a higher flush draw.He isn't as strong for which originally gave him credit.

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

So you pushed, and he called with a higher flush draw and you lost.Is that right?If so, stop being results oriented.

...and this again