Bad Steal Attempt With 10 10 ? Bad Play Part 1

[CorvairShaggy 5]

Since the forum has been slow, I'll try not to post some garbage, but here goes:PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comSB ($28.85)Hero (BB) ($27.05)UTG ($25)MP ($26.90)Button ($24.25)Preflop: Hero is BB with 10, 10UTG bets $1.50, 1 fold, Button calls $1.50, 1 fold, Hero raises to $4, UTG calls $2.50, Button calls $2.50 O.K. First, was the raise size o.k. from BB? After-Thought: this may been a little low with 2 others.Flop: ($12.25) 7, J, K(3 players)Hero checks, UTG checks, Button checks Since I was first to act with over cards on board, I figured I was beat. Just checked to see what happened. If weak bet, was planning on raising. Bad mentality?? (#1)Turn: ($12.25) Q(3 players)Hero bets $10, UTG calls $10, 1 fold Since everyone checked, I figured to try to steal it. (Was also open-ended at this point. If I fire and get called, at least I may have a chance to catch s8t. Bad thought?? (#2) Put my mask on and fired pot shot. UTG took about 20 seconds to make the call, and button folded. River: ($32.25) 5(2 players)Hero bets $13.05 (All-In), UTG calls $11 (All-In) UTG had A, Q Since a blank came off on the river, I chose to lead out and shove. Basically I felt like I was beat and thought to shove the other $13 as a bluff. Would it have been better with this board to just shut down here and save the $13???I think what messed me up here was everyone checking the flop. The table was tight, and there was no raising above $2 in the 15 minutes or so I was here. I was hoping to rep AA or big pair with the 3-bet $4 pre-flop. If someone would have made a decent size flop bet, then I would have been out or if a weak flop bet, I c/r and get called then shut it down from there. Also, if button would have called teh turn alos, then I would have shut it down. Also, the time it took UTG to call also factored in river shove. What would have been the CORRECT way to go about this hand, or is this one of those times where bluff does not work and $hit happens??As I was getting this together, found myself in a similar spot again with QQ this time. Was going to make another topic but did not want to junk it up. Here is this one:PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comSB ($35.40)Hero (BB) ($25.85)UTG ($25)MP ($32.90)CO ($5.60)Button ($30.20)Preflop: Hero is BB with Q, Q1 fold, MP bets $1.50, 3 folds, Hero raises to $4, MP calls $2.50 Once again, too low for 3-bet?? HU this time.Flop: ($8.25) 9, A, 3(2 players)Hero checks, MP bets $3, Hero raises to $6, MP raises to $12, Hero foldsO.K. here decided to c/r with A on board. After re-raise I figured he had the A and let it go.Basically, I feel like there are 2 problems that are similar in both hands A) Do I need to 3-bet more with big pairs??? B) When first to act /OOP with over card is it best to act first to say 1/2 pot or better, or to c/r, or just let it go? I am sure it is based on table feel, but what is the general rule on this. Sorry for extremly long post.

[SwolyswoND 1]

Re-raise size pre is WAY too small. You're oop with a vulnerable hand against two others. If you're going to squeeze here, which I like, it should be to like $9.C/f flop, c/f turn, c/f river. No point in wasting money, the board smacks their ranges so hard.

[Ninja Ace 1]

The raise size preflop is horrific. making it 4 to go would be the lowest I would go with a single opponent... with a squeeze dynamic you should make it 6 preflopIs this a 50BB max table? The key to winning these is entirely... ENTIRELY preflop and flop play... anything other than playing exactly your hand on turn/river decisions on these tables is burning money.

[Ninja Ace 1]

If you're going to squeeze here, which I like, it should be to like $9.

Isn't that a little way too huge? That's more than potting it... i mean I guess if you want to set up an automatic flop shove if called that's ok...

[CorvairShaggy 5]

Damn, you guys are quick. Did not get finished editing post. O.K. So I am still being too cheap pre-flop (ongoing problem. Will be fixed now.) Basically, hit it hard pre and if you do not win pre-flop and flop hits ranges with over cards (which I figured this one hit bullseye, but was slow-played) don't try stealing, just let it go. Flop comes lower/dryer, then go from there.

[Ninja Ace 1]

Damn, you guys are quick. Did not get finished editing post. O.K. So I am still being too cheap pre-flop (ongoing problem. Will be fixed now.) Basically, hit it hard pre and if you do not win pre-flop and flop hits ranges with over cards (which I figured this one hit bullseye, but was slow-played) don't try stealing, just let it go. Flop comes lower/dryer, then go from there.

Well if you get it heads up you can certainly c-bet it... but look at the amount they have to call pre in relation to the pot... $2.50 into $7 ... you should honestly never be expecting a fold... so you're bloating what you should expect to be a three way pot with tens OOP... this might be ok with aces since we like every flop... but that's really the only hand you should like doing that with so really you should never be laying these kind of odds...if you make it $6 to go they have to call $4.50 in a pot of $9 so you're laying decent odds for worse hands to come along but should expect some folds...if you make it $9 to go they have to call $7.50 in a pot of $12 so anybody who ever calls with worse is making a huge mistake

[CorvairShaggy 5]

Thanks for the detailed explination. Makes better sense now. I have noticed that pocket pairs pre-flop (mostly high PP. Just flat, min-raise and set mining with small ones) are my biggest problem. Need to find a chart or something that explains general rule on what to do with PPs OP/OOP and when to raise/flat/3-bet. Will work on that this weekend and go back thru PokerVT. I think I rembember that topic somewhere...Basically, 2nd part of first post with QQ was played better, or still to cheap on both bets?Thanks!!

[shynepo3 0]

if i was to steal with 10/10 in the sb, i'd probalby take it to 7ish...but, 10/10 is not bad to flat no?i dont get the whole raise 3/6/12 on the flop in the 2nd hand..i mean, why are you min raising? and i tend to think on a 2 flush board flop, a min raise is like the limit free card play..for the one who's in position...that's just me though...it looks like a draw to me.

[Ninja Ace 1]

Basically, 2nd part of first post with QQ was played better, or still to cheap on both bets?Thanks!!

The QQ is much better because it is HU and the pot is smaller... this would actually be the size of 3bet I would personally choose (maybe 4.50 but meh). The difference, though, is that you seem lost in pretty basic spots (everyone's a beginner at some point don't be offended) where I'm 3betting a much wider range than you would (depending on the opponent) so I HAVE to 3bet smaller in order to play postflop the way I like.As for preflop play... there's no real "chart" if you will... there's never one correct way to play preflop given your hand because there are many other factors that come in, namely: Stack sizes, table dynamic, position, opponent playstyles, and your perceived image.But until you get the swing of how things go... just stay really tight, refrain from calling preflop (raise/fold), and bet/raise big when its on you. It's a shame you're on stars right now... bc on Cereus and FT there are pot buttons which would give you a decent guide to gettin the idea of how much to bet (mashing the pot button preflop is OK)

[Ninja Ace 1]

10/10 is not bad to flat no?

Given the positions and that this is 6-max TT has way too much value to be flatting here

[Ninja Ace 1]

The QQ is much better because it is HU and the pot is smaller... this would actually be the size of 3bet I would personally choose (maybe 4.50 but meh). The difference, though, is that you seem lost in pretty basic spots (everyone's a beginner at some point don't be offended) where I'm 3betting a much wider range than you would (depending on the opponent) so I HAVE to 3bet smaller in order to play postflop the way I like.As for preflop play... there's no real "chart" if you will... there's never one correct way to play preflop given your hand because there are many other factors that come in, namely: Stack sizes, table dynamic, position, opponent playstyles, and your perceived image.But until you get the swing of how things go... just stay really tight, refrain from calling preflop (raise/fold), and bet/raise big when its on you. It's a shame you're on stars right now... bc on Cereus and FT there are pot buttons which would give you a decent guide to gettin the idea of how much to bet (mashing the pot button preflop is OK)

Oh... and never ****ing minraise... c-c that flop and re-evaluate

[SwolyswoND 1]

Isn't that a little way too huge? That's more than potting it... i mean I guess if you want to set up an automatic flop shove if called that's ok...

Yeah because of stack sizes if you can get it HU and you're first to act you want to shove every flop.I also make it around $9 normally anyway though, because although a slight overbet, I would absolutely hate being in OP's spot being OOP against two with TT - so I push it a little harder to convince hands like AQ to fold. There's just too many flops we hate with TT to risk giving the Broadway hands reasons to tag along - and don't doubt it, there are tons of players who will not fold KJ/KQ/AQ/AJs to a normal-sized 3bet here when they have position.

[CorvairShaggy 5]

The QQ is much better because it is HU and the pot is smaller... this would actually be the size of 3bet I would personally choose (maybe 4.50 but meh). The difference, though, is that you seem lost in pretty basic spots (everyone's a beginner at some point don't be offended) where I'm 3betting a much wider range than you would (depending on the opponent) so I HAVE to 3bet smaller in order to play postflop the way I like.As for preflop play... there's no real "chart" if you will... there's never one correct way to play preflop given your hand because there are many other factors that come in, namely: Stack sizes, table dynamic, position, opponent playstyles, and your perceived image.But until you get the swing of how things go... just stay really tight, refrain from calling preflop (raise/fold), and bet/raise big when its on you. It's a shame you're on stars right now... bc on Cereus and FT there are pot buttons which would give you a decent guide to gettin the idea of how much to bet (mashing the pot button preflop is OK)

Thanks for the info. I was playing at Cake that does have pot buttons, but I found there cash games were tougher than PS (maybe I've gotten better), but there SNGs got really easy for me. Problem is with the SNG is they do not have enough people, and waiting 10 mins at 9:00 at night for a 6-max $8 SNG to fill up is nuts. The SNG at PS is tougher, so I like that.I am not trying to build a bankroll, I am buying knowledge. (for now) In 2 months I have came way farther then what I was the past 10 years. One consistent hole I can see is big pocket pairs. Mentally I just keep getting lost on how to best play them by the way the table goes. Also, I need to learn the table limits that I play better (.25/.50). Sometimes I feel like I may be trying too much fancy play (as you pointed out a few posts up) and not playing what's there. I know it sounds nuts, but I do worse at lower stakes. I will play way too marginal and gamble too much because the amount of $ mentally is just too small. At .25/.50 for now works for me. BUT, I do know things like min-raising and open limping is very bad. Every time I do it, a voice goes off in my head that says "The guys at FCP would be pissed if they saw this". So I will proceed carefully if I do that. At least now I am recognizing bad plays when I make them so that way I can learn from them.

[mtdesmoines 3]

Thanks for the info. I was playing at Cake that does have pot buttons, but I found there cash games were tougher than PS (maybe I've gotten better), but there SNGs got really easy for me. Problem is with the SNG is they do not have enough people, and waiting 10 mins at 9:00 at night for a 6-max $8 SNG to fill up is nuts. The SNG at PS is tougher, so I like that.I am not trying to build a bankroll, I am buying knowledge. (for now) In 2 months I have came way farther then what I was the past 10 years. One consistent hole I can see is big pocket pairs. Mentally I just keep getting lost on how to best play them by the way the table goes. Also, I need to learn the table limits that I play better (.25/.50). Sometimes I feel like I may be trying too much fancy play (as you pointed out a few posts up) and not playing what's there. I know it sounds nuts, but I do worse at lower stakes. I will play way too marginal and gamble too much because the amount of $ mentally is just too small. At .25/.50 for now works for me. BUT, I do know things like min-raising and open limping is very bad. Every time I do it, a voice goes off in my head that says "The guys at FCP would be pissed if they saw this". So I will proceed carefully if I do that. At least now I am recognizing bad plays when I make them so that way I can learn from them.

Don't just play with an FCP shock collar on. Try to understand WHY certain plays are just bad and WHY certain plays work well.

[Biff Goods 0]

[/b]Don't just play with an FCP shock collar on. Try to understand WHY certain plays are just bad and WHY certain plays work well.

POTD+1

[CorvairShaggy 5]

[/b]Don't just play with an FCP shock collar on. Try to understand WHY certain plays are just bad and WHY certain plays work well.

I don't. I am starting too see and understand the WHYs. For Example: I use to ALWAYS limp pre. Never would I raise. Now, I will open raise 3x bb from just about any spot. Flop comes A x x. Generally If I lead out, some stay some go. If they stay then I can assume they have the A. If no one has an A, generally everyone folds to a lead out 3/4 pot bet, or a min raise. I have just for learning, streteched it out to showdown to get beat in those spots to see. 8 out of 10 times if you just c/c c/c c/c sure enough on a A X X board they will have the A. I have found that pre-flop open-raising will steal alot of pots on the flop, especially if the texture is dry. Now, after playing with the same villians for 40-50 hands, they will start getting pissed and get more agressive, so that is when I start limping, and call there raise pre with bigger hands. I don't like to get in pissing contests because I will gamble marginally more and get waxed. Hopefully I explained this correctly and that this is a good/solid foundation? JC (PrtyPSux) does a good job on PokerVT explaing pre-flop raising and why limping is bad, and has alot of examples. "Using all the tools" was the video. Very good.Thanks!!

[CorvairShaggy 5]

Check It Out! I Actually learned something!!PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comSB ($26.80)BB ($18.60)UTG ($40.85)MP ($17.80)Hero (Button) ($27.55)Preflop: Hero is Button with J, JUTG bets $1.50, MP calls $1.50, Hero raises to $7, 4 foldsSince there was 2 callers and tight table, I decided to go to $7 with my jacks. (Too much at a tight table?? $5-$6 work the same??) If I got any callers and any over cards on board, then I knew I would be screwed. On pre-flop raises if it went to showdown they were showing AK or high pairs. At a looser table, would you want to raise higher with JJ/10s to push off AQ/AK hands??

[mtdesmoines 3]

Check It Out! I Actually learned something!!PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comSB ($26.80)BB ($18.60)UTG ($40.85)MP ($17.80)Hero (Button) ($27.55)Preflop: Hero is Button with J, JUTG bets $1.50, MP calls $1.50, Hero raises to $7, 4 foldsSince there was 2 callers and tight table, I decided to go to $7 with my jacks. (Too much at a tight table?? $5-$6 work the same??) If I got any callers and any over cards on board, then I knew I would be screwed. On pre-flop raises if it went to showdown they were showing AK or high pairs. At a looser table, would you want to raise higher with JJ/10s to push off AQ/AK hands??

We're not "pushing them off." We're trying to make them play badly/invest their money in a bad spot. Since we have a small edge with JJ over AQ AK, we're trying to maximize our return from the value of the hand we've been dealt and minimize their chances of getting value from their hand.

[rrumsey 0]

Since the forum has been slow, I'll try not to post some garbage, but here goes:PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comSB ($28.85)Hero (BB) ($27.05)UTG ($25)MP ($26.90)Button ($24.25)Preflop: Hero is BB with 10, 10UTG bets $1.50, 1 fold, Button calls $1.50, 1 fold, Hero raises to $4, UTG calls $2.50, Button calls $2.50 O.K. First, was the raise size o.k. from BB? After-Thought: this may been a little low with 2 others.Flop: ($12.25) 7, J, K(3 players)Hero checks, UTG checks, Button checks Since I was first to act with over cards on board, I figured I was beat. Just checked to see what happened. If weak bet, was planning on raising. Bad mentality?? (#1)$1Turn: ($12.25) Q(3 players)Hero bets 0, UTG calls $10, 1 fold Since everyone checked, I figured to try to steal it. (Was also open-ended at this point. If I fire and get called, at least I may have a chance to catch s8t. Bad thought?? (#2) Put my mask on and fired pot shot. UTG took about 20 seconds to make the call, and button folded. River: ($32.25) 5(2 players)Hero bets $13.05 (All-In), UTG calls $11 (All-In) UTG had A, Q Since a blank came off on the river, I chose to lead out and shove. Basically I felt like I was beat and thought to shove the other $13 as a bluff. Would it have been better with this board to just shut down here and save the $13???I think what messed me up here was everyone checking the flop. The table was tight, and there was no raising above $2 in the 15 minutes or so I was here. I was hoping to rep AA or big pair with the 3-bet $4 pre-flop. If someone would have made a decent size flop bet, then I would have been out or if a weak flop bet, I c/r and get called then shut it down from there. Also, if button would have called teh turn alos, then I would have shut it down. Also, the time it took UTG to call also factored in river shove.#3 What would have been the CORRECT way to go about this hand, or is this one of those times where bluff does not work and $hit happens??

#1, leading out isnt bad imo, i mean we may as well try and take it down on the flop and fold to anything, reeval turn but probably give up after that. But also given you knee jerk desire to call a weak sized bet you need reads on bet sizing aka does small= weak, strong= weak. I mean in a vaccum i either try and steal flop or just c/f flop#2 no, we rep a Q, that is it. A bad Q. I hate trying to bluff here when we didnt act like we had anything on the flop, and it is an clear steal spot, so dont stab, just keep the equity of our PP and check it. win the hand. move on. i mean we have nothing we can get value from#3 it shouldnt factor too much unless you have confirmed timing tells he could be hollywooding

[cashman 0]

#1, leading out isnt bad imo, i mean we may as well try and take it down on the flop and fold to anything, reeval turn but probably give up after that. But also given you knee jerk desire to call a weak sized bet you need reads on bet sizing aka does small= weak, strong= weak. I mean in a vaccum i either try and steal flop or just c/f flop#2 no, we rep a Q, that is it. A bad Q. I hate trying to bluff here when we didnt act like we had anything on the flop, and it is an clear steal spot, so dont stab, just keep the equity of our PP and check it. win the hand. move on. i mean we have nothing we can get value from#3 it shouldnt factor too much unless you have confirmed timing tells he could be hollywooding

I saw a lot of talk about the preflop play but #2 above is the biggest thing I saw, and it is something you have done in every post you have put on this site. You say you're OOP and two overs on the flop so you decide to check and you're prepared to fold. However, because everyone checks, once the THIRD over hits on the turn you decide to bet $10. You say everyone checked, but so did you so they have info on you. Being OOP if you hit any of that flop you're most definitely leading out w/a continuation bet. Now you come out w/a big bet on the turn that looks like a bluff and w/3 overs on the board you can be certain that at least one player has a piece of this. Yes, you're open ended but why not try to see a free card, or at least throw out what could be considered a value bet. By raising that big you're getting called by a player w/a better hand and possibly reraised and losing your chance to see a cheap river card (IMO a value bet wouldn't look as much like a bluff either, and a check would be even better). I thought the post flop play here was just awful. Oh, and once again you lost a lot of $ on yet another bluff. Not trying to be mean, but you really need to think about what your plays will look like to your opponents before you just throw money into the pot. You have shown several posts now where you lose a lot of $ on bluffs and you're still doing it.

[mtdesmoines 3]

cbet more

FYP

[cashman 0]

FYP

Sorry, stupid question but I am a newbie. What does FYP mean?

[CorvairShaggy 5]

I saw a lot of talk about the preflop play but #2 above is the biggest thing I saw, and it is something you have done in every post you have put on this site. You say you're OOP and two overs on the flop so you decide to check and you're prepared to fold. However, because everyone checks, once the THIRD over hits on the turn you decide to bet $10. You say everyone checked, but so did you so they have info on you. Being OOP if you hit any of that flop you're most definitely leading out w/a continuation bet. Now you come out w/a big bet on the turn that looks like a bluff and w/3 overs on the board you can be certain that at least one player has a piece of this. Yes, you're open ended but why not try to see a free card, or at least throw out what could be considered a value bet. By raising that big you're getting called by a player w/a better hand and possibly reraised and losing your chance to see a cheap river card (IMO a value bet wouldn't look as much like a bluff either, and a check would be even better). I thought the post flop play here was just awful. Oh, and once again you lost a lot of $ on yet another bluff. Not trying to be mean, but you really need to think about what your plays will look like to your opponents before you just throw money into the pot. You have shown several posts now where you lose a lot of $ on bluffs and you're still doing it.

You're still right That is probably my #1 problem right now, not telling the story. I think I have got into a bad habit of just "stabbing" at times, and getting a 50/50 results, then sometimes, I go overboard. On this heavy flop a OOP player gets anything should make a stab (value bet) on the flop just to see. Just checking around would mean someone with the monster is just waiting for someone else to build the pot. Ninja Ace brought up a good point earlier up about how to play these stakes. I am noticing a pattern that on these stakes that if a bet is made on the flop, and someone hangs around, most of the time they are either drawing at a draw-heavy board or have something already. I think I am thinking about so much (or not thinking at all??) that sometimes I forget some of the basic items, like "How am I telling the story". Just need to keep recognizing the problems (which you guys are good at pointing out ) and keep working harder at trying to fill them. I swear I am actually getting better, but will probably take more time (and several more dumb posts) but I will get there though.Thanks!!Ohh FYP = "Fixed Your Post" (General Forum - Pinned" FCP Forum Speak Glossary")Basically saying you could have summed up the nice explanative post into 2 words. I like the longer post better (no offense MT, I like the direct to the point jabs from you too )

[rrumsey 0]

I saw a lot of talk about the preflop play but #2 above is the biggest thing I saw, and it is something you have done in every post you have put on this site. You say you're OOP and two overs on the flop so you decide to check and you're prepared to fold. However, because everyone checks, once the THIRD over hits on the turn you decide to bet $10. You say everyone checked, but so did you so they have info on you. Being OOP if you hit any of that flop you're most definitely leading out w/a continuation bet. Now you come out w/a big bet on the turn that looks like a bluff and w/3 overs on the board you can be certain that at least one player has a piece of this. Yes, you're open ended but why not try to see a free card, or at least throw out what could be considered a value bet. By raising that big you're getting called by a player w/a better hand and possibly reraised and losing your chance to see a cheap river card (IMO a value bet wouldn't look as much like a bluff either, and a check would be even better). I thought the post flop play here was just awful. Oh, and once again you lost a lot of $ on yet another bluff. Not trying to be mean, but you really need to think about what your plays will look like to your opponents before you just throw money into the pot. You have shown several posts now where you lose a lot of $ on bluffs and you're still doing it.

vn point. to play it this way is to play it backwards, look to try and keep an idea of your goals for the hand from the start and stay realistic