$2/5 Live Hand - Do You Ever Fold In This Spot?

[shynepo3 0]

Ok, 2/5 live game. I'm on the button with 9/3 suited. I know, i should just fold this hand. My original plan was to actually raise (due to the 5 limpers in front of me), and hopefully take the dead money. But, right before i was about to raise to $50 (with the $50 in my hand), this other player, whom i won a pot off of earlier, said "6/7 suited again?"....he was referring to hand where i raised 3 limpers with 6/7 suited, and he and the BB called my $25 raise. flop came ace, king, 9 with 1 club. i c-bet half the pot when checked to, and when bb folded, this player, whom we'll call "nemesis", took a while before calling. i figure he had a big hand, because he was mostly a weak tight player (but will raise when he thinks his hand is the best), and would only call my pre-flop raise with a good hand (i was hoping for a mid pocket pair once i saw the flop but his flop call indicates a big ace or better). so the turn comes the 5 clubs, which know gives me a gutshot and flush draw. Turn goes check check, and i river the flush. He checks (i told you he was weak tight), and i bet $120 into the $160ish pot, he calls after an eternity, and shows a/k off. He starts going on a rant about how stupid i am to raise 6/7 suited - it doesn't bother me cause he's a regular who always talks shi# to whomever wins a pot off of him. He was like, "why didnt u bet the turn? i was ready to put you all in, blah blah blah"...Sorry for the long intro. so after he makes that comment about 6/7 off, i just call. i was going to fold, but i didn't want the table thinking that i would steal with hands i wouldn't normally even play. So, the Sb completes, and BB checks. And it's 7 players to the flop.Hero has 9 3 and has the table covered.Flop - $35Q 2 8 SB checksBB checksUTG + 1 bets $20 (stack is $175. he's not a good player, and like all bad players, would probably check raise a flush)Nemisis calls $20 (stack is $220. he's a weak tight player, so his call could mean a flush, or ace of diamonds, set,)2 foldsHero raises to $120 (stack is over $600 - is this raise too much? too little?)UTG + 1 goes all-in for $175Nemisis calls $175 (leaving himself $40 behind)Hero?Nemsis took a very long time to just make the call. He repeatedly says, "1 of you have a flush, or just a big diamond?" A few times he looks as if he's going to fold. I really did not believe he was hollywooding with the nuts. He took almost 3-4 minutes before calling. However, I know he either has a non-nut flush, or a set. He woudlnt' call with just 1 diamond. And i do believe if he had a flush under the nuts, he would have raised UTG +1 bet, because of fear being drawn out by a fourth diamond. So it looks like he has a set, or a very small flush (but unlikely). Now UTG +1 range is a bit wider and could be a set, 2 pair (really), 1 pair with ace diamond or a small flush (unlikely). UTG + 1 has rebought a few times, and has lost his buy-ins with poorly played hands like top pair with weak kicker...none were bad beats, he's just a bad player...but he was visibly on tilt. But he did look comfortable while waiting for us.Taking this all into account, and knowing that hero only has to call $100 more at most, into a $670 pot, you have to call here right? And pot odds dictate that I only have to win 1 out of 6.7 times right? If you took away reads, does anyone think I'm the only one with the flush?

[SwolyswoND 1]

You're not folding. You shuold have just shoved the flop.And bad players don't c/r flopped flushes. They c/c them - actually would be far better for someone who flopped a flush here to c/r instead of lead.

[CorvairShaggy 5]

.... he's not a good player, and like all bad players, would probably check raise a flush)

Not to hijack this thread, but I was wondering the same thing. In this spot at the flop, first to act with $155 behind and the pot already being $3xx (twice my stack) why not check with 2 others to act, with 1 of them being the pre-flop raiser? I am a bad player, and If I had a flush (not a draw) I would check hoping that one or both players bet into the big pot, that way my shove would not look too obvious. I can see how a check/raise in other spots would be bad because it basically says "I have it" and would cause you not to get maximum profits, but here you can only make so much before a side pot starts. Am I not understanding something here??As far as the hand, I am a bad player, so If I was UTG+1 I MIGHT shove with Ad/X draw hoping to push everyone off, and still have a shot at the nuts. But, taking away reads, if I was "nemisis" I would not make the call in MP without already having a flush. Too much action IMO. But, like I said before I am a bad player so hopefully I can learn something about how to play this spot.

[shynepo3 0]

You're not folding. You shuold have just shoved the flop.And bad players don't c/r flopped flushes. They c/c them - actually would be far better for someone who flopped a flush here to c/r instead of lead.

You mean I should have just shoved over the $20 bet? That probably would have been best, because it eliminates me from folding (which I may have done depending on how nemisis called)...at the same time, doesn't shoving have some drawbacks?and corvair, i'm the one who's a bad player...so dont worry, your thinking is probably fine.

[dead money 1]

You mean I should have just shoved over the $20 bet? That probably would have been best, because it eliminates me from folding (which I may have done depending on how nemisis called)...at the same time, doesn't shoving have some drawbacks?and corvair, i'm the one who's a bad player...so dont worry, your thinking is probably fine.

Wait. Your first post claims that your read is that he had a set. But now you say you may have folded based on your read. Are you worried about a flush or not? Not that it makes much difference cus you are pushing anyway. You just cant fold here.Im guessing you called he had the flush and he told you you shouldnt have called?

[shynepo3 0]

Wait. Your first post claims that your read is that he had a set. But now you say you may have folded based on your read. Are you worried about a flush or not? Not that it makes much difference cus you are pushing anyway. You just cant fold here.Im guessing you called he had the flush and he told you you shouldnt have called?

I was leaning towards a set, and then, especially with the time he took to call utg's shove, it made it more likely. Now, i would think he would raise utg+1's $20 bet with a non-nut flush, and had he called quicker (or with less hollywooding), i may have been inclined to believe he had a nut flush and fold...but it's tough even in that spot.No he didnt have a flush...i ended up just calling the shove, and on the turn, a blank hit. Nemesis then shoves for the rest of his $40, which i obviously call. Now, if a 4th diamond hit, i would've folded, as crazy as it may sound ($40 into a 600+ pot..lol)...but then i would've felt like killing myself. I doubt he would've shoved his last 40 anyways had the 4th diamond came. On the river, the 4th diamond hit.....utg + 1 had set of deuces, and nemisis had a set of 8's.....normally, i would expect nemesis to fold his set on the flop after the raise and raise/shove...so i guess no one is ever folding in this spot..would you fold if utg+1 shoved, and then nemisis overshoved?

[dead money 1]

I was leaning towards a set, and then, especially with the time he took to call utg's shove, it made it more likely. Now, i would think he would raise utg+1's $20 bet with a non-nut flush, and had he called quicker (or with less hollywooding), i may have been inclined to believe he had a nut flush and fold...but it's tough even in that spot.No he didnt have a flush...i ended up just calling the shove, and on the turn, a blank hit. Nemesis then shoves for the rest of his $40, which i obviously call. Now, if a 4th diamond hit, i would've folded, as crazy as it may sound ($40 into a 600+ pot..lol)...but then i would've felt like killing myself. I doubt he would've shoved his last 40 anyways had the 4th diamond came. On the river, the 4th diamond hit.....utg + 1 had set of deuces, and nemisis had a set of 8's.....normally, i would expect nemesis to fold his set on the flop after the raise and raise/shove...so i guess no one is ever folding in this spot..would you fold if utg+1 shoved, and then nemisis overshoved?

I would think he raises with a small flush and a set so I dont understand why he played it this way. Im not folding if he overshoves either. That wouldnt make much sense. If you raise to $120 does it really make a difference if you have to call $55 more or $95 more? Not really. Not with your hand. This is a great example of why you shouldnt play those hands. You had the best hand but you are still marginal at best and put yourself in a situation where you are either a marginal favorite or crushed. If you lose there it would be considered a cooler but you could have avoided it.

[hartman72 0]

Shynepo,Any bit of advice I could offer in this topic has been covered already. I just wanted to point out that the way villain played AK is EXACTLY the reason I love live poker so much. Doesn't 3 bet you preflop, doesn't raise you on the flop, checks the turn to you, and pays you off on the river.

[Provotrout 0]

Remember, you're playing 2/5 so these villains are short stacked. It's difficult to respect short stack raises with a made hand like that. The flop raise is certainly strong, but it got the action you wanted right? And besides, I'm happy to pick up the smaller pot in this situation to force out top pair, nf draw type hands. After all, how many times do you win $75 with 9d 3d?

[SwolyswoND 1]

You mean I should have just shoved over the $20 bet? That probably would have been best, because it eliminates me from folding (which I may have done depending on how nemisis called)...at the same time, doesn't shoving have some drawbacks?and corvair, i'm the one who's a bad player...so dont worry, your thinking is probably fine.

There's no drawback, and no point to betting > 50% of the effective stacks instead of just sticking it in. And you REALLLY don't want to see a 4th diamond come or the board pair. You have to get the value now if someone wants to draw to a naked high diamond or to fill up. And folding should never enter your mind.

[Ninja Ace 1]

Sorry for the long intro. so after he makes that comment about 6/7 off, i just call.

So someone talks and it encourages you to make the worst of three decisions? Play with me pleaseEitherA) FoldB ) Raise it anywayC) Tell him "no, 9-3 suited this time" and raise it anyway

[Provotrout 0]

C) Tell him "no, 9-3 suited this time" and raise it anyway

haha, seriously. I love these spots. Tell the guy you got a big pile of shit in your hand and he can either choke on it or walk away. That'll give him something to digest as he ponders a call. What a donk.. checks down with top two?? He doesn't deserve to win a pot. Ask him if he can spell RIO.

[Biff Goods 0]

Ok, 2/5 live game. I'm on the button with 9/3 suited. I know, i should just fold this hand...so I did

FYP

[Biff Goods 0]

i was going to fold, but i didn't want the table thinking that i would steal with hands i wouldn't normally even play.

This is kinda backwards thinking. You actually do want this scenario so when you do "steal" with KK they fight back thinking you are just gonna lay it down cause you are so "loose" Oh...and in case you haven't figured it out already...no...you can't get away from it. Ever.

[cashman 0]

I will never understand why guys do what his two opponents did, and I see it all the time. They have a nice hand after the flop and they just decide to ignore the flush on the board. Why shove in these spots. Value bet it, hope that you don't get reraised and pray that the board pairs w/a 4th diamond. Instead they shove and are most likely only getting called if they are behind. I used to make the same mistake on occasion but I figured it out eventually. Why put my stack in the middle when I am only getting called by someone that is ahead when the chips go in. I understand that if a guy has an Ad only he may call as well and that is what you want. But you are putting your neck on the line HOPING that is his holding and even then he has a better than 1 in 3 chance of running you down and 9x out of 10 you're only getting called by the guy that flopped the flush.

[rrumsey 0]

Sorry for the long intro. so after he makes that comment about 6/7 off, i just call. i was going to fold, but i didn't want the table thinking that i would steal with hands i wouldn't normally even play. So, the Sb completes, and BB checks. And it's 7 players to the flop.Hero has 9 3 and has the table covered.Flop - $35Q 2 8 SB checksBB checksUTG + 1 bets $20 (stack is $175. he's not a good player, and like all bad players, would probably check raise a flush)Nemisis calls $20 (stack is $220. he's a weak tight player, so his call could mean a flush, or ace of diamonds, set,)2 foldsHero raises to $120 (stack is over $600 - is this raise too much? too little?)UTG + 1 goes all-in for $175Nemisis calls $175 (leaving himself $40 behind)Hero?Nemsis took a very long time to just make the call. He repeatedly says, "1 of you have a flush, or just a big diamond?" A few times he looks as if he's going to fold. I really did not believe he was hollywooding with the nuts. He took almost 3-4 minutes before calling. However, I know he either has a non-nut flush, or a set. He woudlnt' call with just 1 diamond. And i do believe if he had a flush under the nuts, he would have raised UTG +1 bet, because of fear being drawn out by a fourth diamond. So it looks like he has a set, or a very small flush (but unlikely). Now UTG +1 range is a bit wider and could be a set, 2 pair (really), 1 pair with ace diamond or a small flush (unlikely). UTG + 1 has rebought a few times, and has lost his buy-ins with poorly played hands like top pair with weak kicker...none were bad beats, he's just a bad player...but he was visibly on tilt. But he did look comfortable while waiting for us.Taking this all into account, and knowing that hero only has to call $100 more at most, into a $670 pot, you have to call here right? And pot odds dictate that I only have to win 1 out of 6.7 times right? If you took away reads, does anyone think I'm the only one with the flush?

please tell me im miss reading this, dont open limp on the button or CO, your IP and open limiping,.... this makes me sad

[SwolyswoND 1]

He didn't open limp, he limped behind two others. That makes it only slightly less worse.

[shynepo3 0]

Shynepo,Any bit of advice I could offer in this topic has been covered already. I just wanted to point out that the way villain played AK is EXACTLY the reason I love live poker so much. Doesn't 3 bet you preflop, doesn't raise you on the flop, checks the turn to you, and pays you off on the river.

I'm telling you, he usually plays 1/2, but he's been at the 2/5 table lately...and he's blown up on me a few mores time since...lol

There's no drawback, and no point to betting > 50% of the effective stacks instead of just sticking it in. And you REALLLY don't want to see a 4th diamond come or the board pair. You have to get the value now if someone wants to draw to a naked high diamond or to fill up. And folding should never enter your mind.

I'm talking about shoving over the $20 bet...there is still about $200 effective behind (nemisis has about $240). I know once it gets back to me after i do the $120 raise, I have to call though.....it's just the nemisis was weak tight, so folding actually entered my mind, as bad as it owould be.

So someone talks and it encourages you to make the worst of three decisions? Play with me pleaseEitherA) FoldB ) Raise it anywayC) Tell him "no, 9-3 suited this time" and raise it anyway

lol @ C...that would've been sick if i done that...

This is kinda backwards thinking. You actually do want this scenario so when you do "steal" with KK they fight back thinking you are just gonna lay it down cause you are so "loose" Oh...and in case you haven't figured it out already...no...you can't get away from it. Ever.

I had to re-read what you wrote a few times, lol, but you're right....cause actually, had they seen me throw it away, they would've thought, "hey he steals with garbage.., i'm gonna call him with my 55-88,a/j"

He didn't open limp, he limped behind two others. That makes it only slightly less worse.

I limped in on the button, in front of 4 limpers...which isn't bad at all imo....but 9/3 suited, yes, i know, no good...And just when i thought no one would respond to my topics anymore...

[SwolyswoND 1]

It's still a shove on the flop, OP. I know that you were talking about over the initial $20. So was I.

[shynepo3 0]

I understand what you mean now.....

[SwolyswoND 1]

DUCY it's a shove? When action comes to you, the pot will be $80 + however much you raise. One player has $155 left and the other has $195 left. Assuming if they are going to continue, they will need a set or a naked high diamond (or have flopped a higher flush, but we're drawing dead to that so analysis there is irrelevant). Sets have 30% equity against you. A naked diamond has about the same, maybe a little less (7 remaining flush outs).That means that with 30% equity, they only need 2.3-to-1 odds to call you and do so correctly. To price them out odds-wise you have to raise pretty much what you did, but you can't raise that much and then fold ever. Like, what happens if you raise to $120 and UTG folds but Nemesis flats - and then a 4th diamond comes, or the board pairs, and he shoves? You can't fold for the price, but you're basically never winning. So since you're committed, you might as well charge them the max to draw. If they fold their draw since we charged too much, that's fine - our equity vs. their ranges isn't as fantastic as you might think. If you were deeper, then your raise size is basically perfect.

[shynepo3 0]

DUCY it's a shove? When action comes to you, the pot will be $80 + however much you raise. One player has $155 left and the other has $195 left. Assuming if they are going to continue, they will need a set or a naked high diamond (or have flopped a higher flush, but we're drawing dead to that so analysis there is irrelevant). Sets have 30% equity against you. A naked diamond has about the same, maybe a little less (7 remaining flush outs).That means that with 30% equity, they only need 2.3-to-1 odds to call you and do so correctly. To price them out odds-wise you have to raise pretty much what you did, but you can't raise that much and then fold ever. Like, what happens if you raise to $120 and UTG folds but Nemesis flats - and then a 4th diamond comes, or the board pairs, and he shoves? You can't fold for the price, but you're basically never winning. So since you're committed, you might as well charge them the max to draw. If they fold their draw since we charged too much, that's fine - our equity vs. their ranges isn't as fantastic as you might think. If you were deeper, then your raise size is basically perfect.

That makes perfect sense - I want to charge the max, since there isn't enough money behind. It makes me shiver to think I might've folded if he nemisis shoved on top off utg+1. Or if that 4th diamond came on the turn instead of the river and I decided to save my $40 when he shoves....uggggh.

[Provotrout 0]

This is why in my early days I started to raise really strong with TPTK against drawing boards. Gotta make the draws pay a hefty premium to keep going. If you're beat, then so be it.Of course, after meeting a lot of two pair/set type hands I moderated that approach by relying on reads + moderate raises to distinguish between sets and draw bluffs. Being in position helps of course, but the overall point remains: it's good poker to apply serious pressure to draws. If applied correctly, you win even when you lose (unless you're over-flushed of course).

[shynepo3 0]

This is why in my early days I started to raise really strong with TPTK against drawing boards. Gotta make the draws pay a hefty premium to keep going. If you're beat, then so be it.Of course, after meeting a lot of two pair/set type hands I moderated that approach by relying on reads + moderate raises to distinguish between sets and draw bluffs. Being in position helps of course, but the overall point remains: it's good poker to apply serious pressure to draws. If applied correctly, you win even when you lose (unless you're over-flushed of course).

yeah, i definely see what you're saying, and i do practice that (pricing out drws - but i usually do it when i have a bit more than tptk, if it's not heads up)...i was just a bit confused with swol's logic as to shove instead of raise, but he clarified it...which makes sense..lately, i notice that i've been getting too greedy with my made hands against draws with more than 3-4 players in the hand. like this hand i played the other day, i didnt raise on the flop...i'm going to make a thread on it, and i'm pretty sure everyone is going to say i should have raised...provotrout, you still playiing 1/2 live or did u make the jump to 2/5...or online?

[Provotrout 0]

provotrout, you still playiing 1/2 live or did u make the jump to 2/5...or online?

Still taking time off from live play, playing low stakes online and relaxing. Will get into live mode sometime in the next couple weeks, but most local games are 1/3 so that'll probably be the format.