Flopped Quads, 5/5 Live

[shynepo3 0]

I have pocket 5's in the cutoff. There are about 3 callers in front of me, as well as the blinds, and the button calls as well. 8 players to the flop. UTG leads out for $20 on the flop.....flop - $405 5 8 two heartsutg bets $20 (stack size is over 800. he's a thinking player, and unpredictable...probably one of the better players at the club - he could have anything in this spot)utg + 1 calls $20 (stack is about 350. he's aggressive, and will call and push light. his range when he calls are straight and flush draws, and 8's. He usually has no overpair in this spot)everyone folds to herohero calls $20 (stack is $400. based on what i've told you so far, should i raise here and represent a draw? i'm not sure....)turn - $1009 heartsutg checks (i think he gives up here - he would bet if he hit his flush)utg + 1 bets $20 (weak bet???)hero raises to $120 (i raised the pot roughly, which, in retrospect, maybe a bit too much? i think i priced out any draw that utg might have had)....anyways, i'm just wondering, what's the best way to get value in this spot...

[hartman72 0]

I would raise to 60 on the flop. One of the players will certainly call and you want to inflate the pot as quickly as possible. You're only going to get action with a flush draw, an over pair, 6 7 and possibly A 8. If they don't have a hand, you're not going to make any money no matter what you do, so raising is best.On the turn, you could bet 150-250 depending on how many callers you get.

[TraptSteve 0]

C/c flop, 1-2 pot raise turn, pot riveror POT POT POT POT POT POT POT (like lil john's SHOT song with LMFAO) all the way. Either let the hand develop and hope someone makes something OR try to build the pot early hoping someone has a good enough hand / draw to come along to VALUETOWN

[shynepo3 0]

I would raise to 60 on the flop. One of the players will certainly call and you want to inflate the pot as quickly as possible. You're only going to get action with a flush draw, an over pair, 6 7 and possibly A 8. If they don't have a hand, you're not going to make any money no matter what you do, so raising is best.On the turn, you could bet 150-250 depending on how many callers you get.

i would think most of the time, i would raise the flop, if i had, said A/5 or something of that nature...but because i know for sure no one has a 5, isn't raising here scream of a 5?? especially if i'm raising a bet and a call?

[shynepo3 0]

C/c flop, 1-2 pot raise turn, pot riveror POT POT POT POT POT POT POT (like lil john's SHOT song with LMFAO) all the way. Either let the hand develop and hope someone makes something OR try to build the pot early hoping someone has a good enough hand / draw to come along to VALUETOWN

so, on the turn, you think i should have raised less?

[hartman72 0]

i would think most of the time, i would raise the flop, if i had, said A/5 or something of that nature...but because i know for sure no one has a 5, isn't raising here scream of a 5?? especially if i'm raising a bet and a call?

Perhaps, but it could also represent 10 10 or JJ. Either way, you will still get called by a flush draw, straight draw, and overpairs. If the flop was checked to you, I'd recommend checking behind. But with the action, I think a raise is good.

[shynepo3 0]

Perhaps, but it could also represent 10 10 or JJ. Either way, you will still get called by a flush draw, straight draw, and overpairs. If the flop was checked to you, I'd recommend checking behind. But with the action, I think a raise is good.

that makes good sense

[SwolyswoND 1]

Here's the thing to remember about live poker:Live villains expect you to slowplay monsters, because that's what they would do. If you raise the flop, they are almost never going to put you on 5x. If you raise a non-large amount, no flush draw is folding, 67 isn't folding. 8x might, but who knows. The problem with flatting and waiting until the turn to raise is now it does show just how strong you are - especially given which turn card came. Now when you raise you rep a flush or better, and that eliminates a lot of hands that villains will call you with.The typical live player tells you the true strength of his hand on the turn. Avoid the pitfall of waiting till the turn to raise your strong hands, and you will see your winrate soar.

[cashman 0]

Here's the thing to remember about live poker:Live villains expect you to slowplay monsters, because that's what they would do. If you raise the flop, they are almost never going to put you on 5x. If you raise a non-large amount, no flush draw is folding, 67 isn't folding. 8x might, but who knows. The problem with flatting and waiting until the turn to raise is now it does show just how strong you are - especially given which turn card came. Now when you raise you rep a flush or better, and that eliminates a lot of hands that villains will call you with.The typical live player tells you the true strength of his hand on the turn. Avoid the pitfall of waiting till the turn to raise your strong hands, and you will see your winrate soar.

Once he does flat the flop, do you think flatting the turn would be the best option? I also think a reraise, say 3x, on the flop is probably the better move to make it believable that you don't have a monster. However, once the third heart hits on the turn, I would probably smooth call again hoping that villain has a big H. I think the only way you're get called betting that much on the turn is if he has two hearts. The $20 bet by villain kind of looks like he wants to see that river so I would probably let him. Is my line of thinking off here? If the turn is not a heart I think the bet he actually made is a good one. Would you agree?

[mtdesmoines 3]

no one wants to raise pf?

[hartman72 0]

no one wants to raise pf?

I don't, not with 3 limpers. This is the perfect time to try to flop a set (or quads) in a big multiway pot.

[Ninja Ace 1]

Raise to about 70 on the flopthese are really low quads, and draws and such are on the board, so there is a large array of hands that will pay you / 3bet you

[hartman72 0]

Raise to about 70 on the flopthese are really low quads, and draws and such are on the board, so there is a large array of hands that will pay you / 3bet you

What do you mean by that? If we have 99 on a 99 Q hh board, do we play it differently?

[SwolyswoND 1]

Once he does flat the flop, do you think flatting the turn would be the best option? I also think a reraise, say 3x, on the flop is probably the better move to make it believable that you don't have a monster. However, once the third heart hits on the turn, I would probably smooth call again hoping that villain has a big H. I think the only way you're get called betting that much on the turn is if he has two hearts. The $20 bet by villain kind of looks like he wants to see that river so I would probably let him. Is my line of thinking off here? If the turn is not a heart I think the bet he actually made is a good one. Would you agree?

Meh. This situation is exactly why raising the flop is so important. I see what you're saying, but the problem is we need to get value SOMEWHERE. I think I still raise the turn in this hypothetical, hoping that someone either already has a flush and can't let it go, or someone will still draw to a naked Ah, or give someone who is slowplaying a boat to reraise. You gotta get the chips in the middle at some point, and when there are still possible draws, it's always better to charge the turn then hope they hit on the river. The problem with flatting is even if he "wants to see the river cheap" hes not paying any more unless he hits. Might as well charge him now to try to hit, but the raise size was too big.

[shynepo3 0]

Here's the thing to remember about live poker:Live villains expect you to slowplay monsters, because that's what they would do. If you raise the flop, they are almost never going to put you on 5x. If you raise a non-large amount, no flush draw is folding, 67 isn't folding. 8x might, but who knows. The problem with flatting and waiting until the turn to raise is now it does show just how strong you are - especially given which turn card came. Now when you raise you rep a flush or better, and that eliminates a lot of hands that villains will call you with.The typical live player tells you the true strength of his hand on the turn. Avoid the pitfall of waiting till the turn to raise your strong hands, and you will see your winrate soar.

i definitely agree here...most of the time, waiting for the turn is the obvious "live" play. but because of the nature of these two opponents who could have nothing in this spot, i wanted them to catch up a bit....although villian 2 should have something at this point..what happened, after i raised, villain 1 folded, later claimed he was just trying to pick up the pot, and villian 2 went all in...he went it with 8/9 off..lol. a fourth heart came on the river...so if i flatted, it would have been terrible, as he wouldn't call a river bet - but that's just being results oriented...but i think if i had raised the flop, villain 1 might have called along with villain 2 (who's never folding here - that's the way he is).say i did raise to 60 on the flop, and get called, and the same turn card comes, completing straights/flush..and it gets checkd to me, which 95% of the time it will....do u bet and how much? a 50% pot bet?

[rrumsey 0]

mike matusow harped on this at his deep stacks live event, when you have a good hand you need to avoid trapping too much with it. If he has a good hand here you make a lot more in the long run, you may very well get his stack. If you keep it too small you could get value, but never gets his stack. I mean if it is odvious you have a big hand and that can't be avoided you might as well get as much money in as possible as soon as possible. villains make mistakes. Plus your betting and raising ranges should be balanced enough that a bet/ raise on wet boards shouldn't telegraph the nuts. Just food for thought. I agree with swolys 100% here

[shynepo3 0]

mike matusow harped on this at his deep stacks live event, when you have a good hand you need to avoid trapping too much with it. If he has a good hand here you make a lot more in the long run, you may very well get his stack. If you keep it too small you could get value, but never gets his stack. I mean if it is odvious you have a big hand and that can't be avoided you might as well get as much money in as possible as soon as possible. villains make mistakes. Plus your betting and raising ranges should be balanced enough that a bet/ raise on wet boards shouldn't telegraph the nuts. Just food for thought. I agree with swolys 100% here

thanks....i see what u mean. clearly betting the flop was best.

[SwolyswoND 1]

say i did raise to 60 on the flop, and get called, and the same turn card comes, completing straights/flush..and it gets checkd to me, which 95% of the time it will....do u bet and how much? a 50% pot bet?

Youd have 335 behind and theres like 220 in the pot, right? I probably bet 160 there. If they would call 110, they'd call 160.

[BaseJester 1]

hero raises to $120 (i raised the pot roughly, which, in retrospect, maybe a bit too much? i think i priced out any draw that utg might have had)....

A pot-sized raise would be to 20 + (100+20+20) = 160. I don't think the size is a problem.

[Ninja Ace 1]

What do you mean by that? If we have 99 on a 99 Q hh board, do we play it differently?

No, i'd still play that the same...I guess what I'm saying it's not KK on a KK2 board

[Fluffdog87 2]

r to $100 on flopppl find a way to hang themselves + it's a draw heavey board