Show Us Your Papers

[Ninjafoo 0]

Why do these gangs exist? Why don't they sell their products legally, the way alcohol and bread get sold?

Umm have you ever met someone on Meth (az's biggest drug problem) if you think trying to keep Meth out is worse than Meth itself you're just an idiot.

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

As I've pointed out, this is the most retarded argument ever. You can't define people as criminals for wanting a better life.

No. You define people as criminals for breaking the law.No matter how many times you try to ignore it and wrap it in emotion you're just plain wrong.

[vbnautilus 48]

Yeah, I don't think it's a coincidence that the rogue cops have stepped up the harassment already.

Seems to me that given the situation there's going to be heightened attention on everyday occurrences.

[nutzbuster 7]

Yeah, I don't think it's a coincidence that the rogue cops have stepped up the harassment already.I mean, it could be, just like it could be a coincidence that the vast majority of traffic stops in MN is of minorities despite the fact that hardly any of them live here.Seems unlikely, no?

I'm seriously beginning to wonder if you need medication

[CaneBrain 95]

Yeah. Legislators should never try and do what they think is the right thing because there is going to be opposition that results in costly law suits. ...or perhaps it is the fault of the Cop for wasting the Taxpayers Money by bringing up the lawsuit?

no, they should not do things that are doomed to fail the moment they hit the court system.if it was not the cop, it would have been the Mexican legal defense fund. it was INEVITABLE.

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

You or nobody else has any moral right to declare voluntary consensual behavior illegal. Period.

What are you talking about? Of course their behavior is illegal. By definition. You can't just wish that away.

This law isn't about "reasonable cause" and you know it and I know it and everybody knows it, so I'm not sure why the defenders of this law feel the need to pretend it's something it isn't. The law is to harass people who have done nothing wrong -- nothing. We've already seen the result -- an innocent citizen being harassed and handcuffed despite carrying ID.

Just because you say it with earnestness and emotion, doesn't make it so. Yes, this law is about reasonable cause. And how can we see the result of a law that isn't even in effect yet? How does the action of a Federal Agent relate to this State Law? And we don't even know the facts of that one incident. Sorry Dude you're really reaching on this one.

But this isn't a law that "may be abused", this is a law that invites, in fact, demands that cops abuse the rights of innocent people. Quit pretending.

Again, just because you seem to want to believe that this law will somehow be applied outside of the bounds of accepted rules regarding reasonable cause doesn't make it a fact. Quit assuming.

Except they do pay taxes, lots of them.

There is absolutely no way you can show that the "good" Illegal Immigrants - most of whom are in cash based jobs - pay a share of taxes that makes up for the benefits they consume PLUS the resources consumed by the "bad" Illegals. That's your Fantasy, not mine.

Huh? You're really stretching here. It's OK, I can see you've never thought about this much before, and it takes a while.

**** you. Seriously. You're about 1/10th as clever as you think you are. Your arguments aren't based on facts - just your emotional hypocritical bias. You don't seem to be able to recognize the difference between a fact and an assumption.

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

Yeah, I don't think it's a coincidence that the rogue cops have stepped up the harassment already.I mean, it could be, just like it could be a coincidence that the vast majority of traffic stops in MN is of minorities despite the fact that hardly any of them live here.Seems unlikely, no?

Wow. Really? The vast majority? Sounds like yet another hard fact from you. And even accepting it as true, you really can't figure out why that might happen other than racist rogue cops?

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

no, they should not do things that are doomed to fail the moment they hit the court system.if it was not the cop, it would have been the Mexican legal defense fund. it was INEVITABLE.

We'll see. The article that Jeep shared seems to indicate that the Law isn't nearly as extreme as it is being characterized.

[CaneBrain 95]

actually most illegal immigrants work in places like slaughter-houses and have fake social security #s and pay a normal amount of taxes for their wage level under assumed identities.the day laborer illegal immigrant is the most visible but does not represent the norm.

[CaneBrain 95]

We'll see. The article that Jeep shared seems to indicate that the Law isn't nearly as extreme as it is being characterized.

it really does not matter. immigration is under the purview of the federal government. state laws made by race classification always lose. they just do.I dont know if that is right or wrong but I feel comfortable guaranteeing that most of these legislators knew this was a doomed errand so to speak.

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

actually most illegal immigrants work in places like slaughter-houses and have fake social security #s and pay a normal amount of taxes for their wage level under assumed identities.the day laborer illegal immigrant is the most visible but does not represent the norm.

Interesting. I did a search and will stand at least somewhat corrected on this. Would love to see a full (unbiased) analysis.

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

it really does not matter. immigration is under the purview of the federal government. state laws made by race classification always lose. they just do.I dont know if that is right or wrong but I feel comfortable guaranteeing that most of these legislators knew this was a doomed errand so to speak.

How is this law "race classification"? Not being argumentative, I honestly don't know how to define this as race classification. Seems pretty standard that if a law was based on race classification, it'd certainly be doomed. And from that article it seems that States can indeed legislate Immigration issues.

[hblask 1]

No. You define people as criminals for breaking the law.No matter how many times you try to ignore it and wrap it in emotion you're just plain wrong.

Circular definition. Look it up.

[hblask 1]

I'm seriously beginning to wonder if you need medication

Why is that? Did you miss the stories? Do you believe there are no bad cops?

[hblask 1]

There is absolutely no way you can show that the "good" Illegal Immigrants - most of whom are in cash based jobs - pay a share of taxes that makes up for the benefits they consume PLUS the resources consumed by the "bad" Illegals. That's your Fantasy, not mine.

The vast majority of economic studies show it. Reality matters.

[hblask 1]

Wow. Really? The vast majority? Sounds like yet another hard fact from you. And even accepting it as true, you really can't figure out why that might happen other than racist rogue cops?

I've worked with black professionals for many years. They are surprised if they go a month without getting pulled over for DWB. This isn't about honest police work.

[CaneBrain 95]

How is this law "race classification"? Not being argumentative, I honestly don't know how to define this as race classification. Seems pretty standard that if a law was based on race classification, it'd certainly be doomed. And from that article it seems that States can indeed legislate Immigration issues.

Actually, lots of laws have racial classifications.....they have to overcome what is called "strict scrutiny" which basically means that the government has to show that there is a "compelling interest" in passing the law and that there is "no better means" by which to do so.No officer is going to reasonably suspect a white person of being an illegal immigrant (in Arizona anyway). That would be fairly silly. Therefore, this law will inevitably impact different races in different ways. That automatically makes it a law judged by strict scrutiny.State laws that relate to alienage always lose. If you want to research that, you can, or you can just trust me. Again, I dont know if that is good or bad but that is how it is. Between this and all the states fighting Obamacare in court we have a lot of Republicans wasting a LOT of money on futile gestures.Then again Democrats are pretending you can cover an extra 32 million people and save money. I give up?

[CaneBrain 95]

How is this law "race classification"? Not being argumentative, I honestly don't know how to define this as race classification. Seems pretty standard that if a law was based on race classification, it'd certainly be doomed. And from that article it seems that States can indeed legislate Immigration issues.

Hi! I have trouble using an internet forum! Trust my legal analysis!

[hblask 1]

Umm have you ever met someone on Meth (az's biggest drug problem) if you think trying to keep Meth out is worse than Meth itself you're just an idiot.

As I've already pointed out, the problems caused by the Insane War on Drugs are a major part of the problem.Do manufacturers sell lawnmowers whose blades break up and cut off legs?Do food companies sell food that contains enough arsenic to kill?Why would pharmaceutical companies sell a drug that is as harmful as meth?The only reason meth exists is because drugs are illegal.You guys really need to look at how circular your reasoning is:1. Declare harmless, voluntary, consensual behavior illegal2. Use the side effects of that law as proof of why we need the law.3. Because police have nobody reporting victimless crimes, they have to harass innocent people to catch them.so 4. Say that abusing the rights of innocents is "necessary".When your arguments make no sense, check your starting point. You guys are the problem, not the solution.

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

No officer is going to reasonably suspect a white person of being an illegal immigrant. That would be fairly silly.

Immigrants come from other places than Mexico.And I'll take your more educated word regarding the legal history.I'll even take your word twice.

[CaneBrain 95]

Immigrants come from other places than Mexico.And I'll take your more educated word regarding the legal history.I'll even take your word twice.

not in Arizona (although that would be a crafty place for a Canadian to hide).also, let's be serious. I know this law could encompass all races but in reality it will impact Hispanic people more. I think you acknowledged as much in a post discussing "the price you pay" to combat immigration. And the courts will not overlook that in their analysis.I do almost agree with the reasoning that this law is a good thing if it gets Washington of its butt. But that is easier to see as a non-resident of Arizona.....if I lived in AZ, I would be furious about the wastefulness of it all.I do not want to get too involved in your argument with Henry, but I will say that it should be very clear that legalizing some drugs would do much more to stop border violence than immigration reform ever could.

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

The only reason meth exists is because drugs are illegal.

That's pretty silly. I think meth exists because people like to get high.

You guys really need to look at how circular your reasoning is:1. Declare harmless, voluntary, consensual behavior illegal2. Use the side effects of that law as proof of why we need the law.3. Because police have nobody reporting victimless crimes, they have to harass innocent people to catch them.so 4. Say that abusing the rights of innocents is "necessary".When your arguments make no sense, check your starting point. You guys are the problem, not the solution.

Ummm......nevermind. Just ummm.

[CaneBrain 95]

That's pretty silly. I think meth exists because people like to get high.

And until you cure "people like to get high", the war on drugs will be a gigantic waste of time.

[hblask 1]

That's pretty silly. I think meth exists because people like to get high.

Given a choice between not getting high, and getting high unsafely, people will choose unsafe.Given a choice between 'safe and legal' and 'unsafe and illegal', people will choose safe and legal.Meth is not a safe drug, and no manufacturer that is subject to liability laws would produce it.

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

And until you cure "people like to get high", the war on drugs will be a gigantic waste of time.

Until you cure "people have murderous rage", you're going to have murders.