Show Us Your Papers

[hblask 1]

It's really easy for people up north to condemn the law when the problem isn't in their back yard.How do you like the rise in Tuberculosis? Thank you Mexico!

I had a sore knee the other day, so I started hitting it with a sledgehammer. Sure, it's easy for you to condemn that solution -- it's not your knee. Try walking around on my knee for a while and you'll see why my solution was correct.

[CaneBrain 95]

It's really easy for people up north to condemn the law when the problem isn't in their back yard.How do you like the rise in Tuberculosis? Thank you Mexico!

Yes, because there are no giant pockets of illegal immigrants in places like Iowa, Minnesota, and New York City. Also what is the "problem" again? The drop in violent crime? The large block of cheap labor that businesses in your area obviously need otherwise no one would come? Too many brown lookin folk?

[Balloon guy 158]

Yes, because there are no giant pockets of illegal immigrants in places like Iowa, Minnesota, and New York City. Also what is the "problem" again? The drop in violent crime? The large block of cheap labor that businesses in your area obviously need otherwise no one would come? Too many brown lookin folk?

Already been established that the majority of the 'drops in crime' have been attributed to police departments under reporting crimes in order to cook their books.Let's not rehash old asked and answered arguments counselor, or we'll be here all day.

[Woodbelly 0]

Let's ship about 5 million up to Minnesota and see how they feel about it. We'll see what happens when people start getting hit in traffic by illegals with no insurance. Every day in the paper down here Garcia is murdering Rodriguez. I thought people blasting rap music in their car was bad, try Tejano.10 years ago if Americans would have gotten off their asses and start mowing their own lawns, cooking and growing their own food, the problem wouldn't be near as large as it has become. We have only ourselves to blame.

[Roll the Bones 74]

I don't think it's fair, right or moral for our government to be creating laws that target a specific race and this law does like it or not. We should not be passing laws that we know up front will lead to honest citizens being harrassed by our own government. It's easy to be from a state without an immigration problem and white and think it's okay to pass this law but it is inherantly wrong and a bad precedent.On the other hand, we have laws against illegal immigration that are not being enforced. To me isn't this the same thing? Aren't we blanketedly ignoring a law that favors a specific race? Call it what you want but it's the same thing and just as wrong.So the heart of the matter seems to be in coming up with a fair law. HB has stated numerous times that he believes the major problem behind the immigration problem is the terrible drug laws and while I tend to agree that the drug laws are a failure I am not sold that the problem goes away solely because of it. The mafia and many other illegal organizations (gangs) survived and still do by many other illegal activities. I love the altruistic nature of HB's arguement but even it precludes that people are basically good; that people just want to come here and work peacefully. I think people are only slightly more good than evil as attested by any major city with an electric failure. It also assumes they have a "right" to come here and work peacefully when they don't.The majority of people's first moral obligation is to their family and to work towards the goal of providing as best they can for them. I understand that the illegal immigrants have it bad whichis why they want to come here but it doesn't give them the right. Analogies suck, but to keep it simple let's say I make an awesome apple pie. Just because it tastes fantastic doesn't give everyone in my city the right to a piece of it. The people of Arizona have worked hard and selected and supported the community of their choosing and to watch property values, rampant crime and a drop in the education level of their children due to the increased strain on the system is not what they signed up for.Proponents of a less stringent immigration policy readily admit we can't open the borders in all fairness to our own citizens without policy guidelines regarding Visa fees, intent to become citizens, and background checks. So we have created a problem with no great solution. I think the start would be to simply require that anyone that actually breaks the law provide identification as the law allows to check immigration status and follow through with deportation, regardless of ethnicity. If employers can't find employees they should be able to pay a reasonable work visa fee to have foreign employees providing they pass a background check and pay taxes. Change the drug law to either the death penalty for possesion or make it legal, quit fucking around. Emplyers who knowingly emply illegal immigrants should be fined and jailed. There are already federal laws with regard to this but local enforcement should be allowed. I can think of other things like no more free passes for money to illegals as far as health care, welfare etc. The burden on border hospitals is in the billions of dollars since they aren't allowed by law to turn anyone away. If you recieve such medical care you are obligated to work e.g. community service until such bills are paid. If you have an outstanding bill and haven't attempted to fulfill these requirments you do not get further aide, regardless.

[hblask 1]

Let's ship about 5 million up to Minnesota and see how they feel about it.

Obviously all at once would be an issue; we covered that on page 1, I think. But I welcome immigrants of all type to my state. But it wasn't all at once in AZ, either.

We'll see what happens when people start getting hit in traffic by illegals with no insurance.

I have insurance, as any responsible person does, so it's not a big issue.

Every day in the paper down here Garcia is murdering Rodriguez.

Don't confuse the issues caused by the Insane War on Drugs with the issues caused by immigration.

[further racism deleted]

[CaneBrain 95]

Already been established that the majority of the 'drops in crime' have been attributed to police departments under reporting crimes in order to cook their books.Let's not rehash old asked and answered arguments counselor, or we'll be here all day.

First of all, I dont remember that. Second, we want to give police officers who cook their books (show a proclivity to lie) more power? Great plan.

[strategy 4]

We'll see what happens when people start getting hit in traffic by illegals with no insurance.

During my time in property/casualty/auto, I learned that some states require drivers to provide initial proof of liability coverage but not notification from the insurer upon cancellation or nonrenewal. People in states like New Mexico, Mississippi, Alabama, etc. get coverage, make one payment, then cancel and drive uninsured until the policy would have been up for renewal. Rinse, repeat.Don't take my word for it. Just look at the study below and note the huge difference in uninsured rates between New Mexico (worst in the country, 29%) and Texas (15%, national average of 13.8%). Still gonna try to tell me it's all illegals, not bad policy enforcement?http://www.aicpcu.org/irc/News/IRC_UM_012109.pdfThanks for allowing me to look smart at your expense.

Every day in the paper down here Garcia is murdering Rodriguez. I thought people blasting rap music in their car was bad, try Tejano.

hahahahaha

[Woodbelly 0]

During my time in property/casualty/auto, I learned that some states require drivers to provide initial proof of liability coverage but not notification from the insurer upon cancellation or nonrenewal. People in states like New Mexico, Mississippi, Alabama, etc. get coverage, make one payment, then cancel and drive uninsured until the policy would have been up for renewal. Rinse, repeat.Don't take my word for it. Just look at the study below and note the huge difference in uninsured rates between New Mexico (worst in the country, 29%) and Texas (15%, national average of 13.8%). Still gonna try to tell me it's all illegals, not bad policy enforcement?http://www.aicpcu.org/irc/News/IRC_UM_012109.pdfThanks for allowing me to look smart at your expense.hahahahaha

so smart. way to be in insurance. i'm sure you did the world a great service.

[strategy 4]

so smart. way to be in insurance. i'm sure you did the world a great service.

thank you. I was just a lowly intern and didn't get a job offer due to a firm-wide hiring freeze. It was for the best... I'm earning lots of FCP debate dollars.

[nutzbuster 7]

COME TO THE U S A !

[LongLiveYorke 38]

COME TO THE U S A !

Is it bad that I somewhat agree with the video if taken at face value.I mean, basically the guy's saying: Come to America, we're better than crazy China, North Korea, and Mexico, we have lots of jobs available, we have healthcare and welfare, and in some lucky places, if you choose to open a house of prostitution as a means of making making money, that's legal. We even respect other cultures enough to help with certain required government forms by translating them into Spanish, the language that almost a majority of the continent speaks.

[FCP Bob 1,312]

Is it bad that I somewhat agree with the video if taken at face value.I mean, basically the guy's saying: Come to America, we're better than crazy China, North Korea, and Mexico, we have lots of jobs available, we have healthcare and welfare, and in some lucky places, if you choose to open a house of prostitution as a means of making making money, that's legal. We even respect other cultures enough to help with certain required government forms by translating them into Spanish, the language that almost a majority of the continent speaks.

I don't think you're watching it right.

[strategy 4]

I don't think you're watching it right.

yes. must have clenched fists/teeth, steaming from the ears, bulging eyes.

[Woodbelly 0]

and in today's headlines...Dallas police seek gunman in fatal pool hall shooting11:51 AM CDT on Sunday, May 23, 2010WFAA-TVDallas police are on the lookout for the man responsible for shooting two people at a pool hall early Sunday morning.One person was killed when the gunman opened fire at the Billar Los Compadres club in the 2000 block of South Beckley Avenue at 2:10 a.m.The Dallas County Medical Examiner's office identified the victim as Santiago Cuadros, 50.Another man, identified by police as 50-year-old Juan Carlos-Gonzalez Garcia, was shot in the left foot. He drove himself to a hospital for treatment.No description of the gunman was available, and the motive for the shooting was under investigation.

[Balloon guy 158]

First of all, I dont remember that. Second, we want to give police officers who cook their books (show a proclivity to lie) more power? Great plan.

Nice recovery...But unfortunately you have sunk your own case.Once you argue the argument of all cops being corrupt, you in effect blame the corruption of the entire legal system to be to blame.How then do you argue anything, once you have removed the moral authority of the presiding system?You cannot argue to enact change in the laws to protect anyone, while using as your excuse the notion that people who in fact enforce the laws...ignore the ones we already have.So counselor, you lose this case.Please come back tomorrow with a better line of questioning.Comprende'?

[CaneBrain 95]

Comprende'?

No, I dont speak crazy. I am arguing for keeping the power of the police where it is now. They have enough to do without immigration control too.

[hblask 1]

Nice recovery...But unfortunately you have sunk your own case.Once you argue the argument of all cops being corrupt, you in effect blame the corruption of the entire legal system to be to blame.How then do you argue anything, once you have removed the moral authority of the presiding system?You cannot argue to enact change in the laws to protect anyone, while using as your excuse the notion that people who in fact enforce the laws...ignore the ones we already have.So counselor, you lose this case.Please come back tomorrow with a better line of questioning.Comprende'?

It's because most of the corruption in the police force is due to arbitrary and unjust laws, and the pursuit of victimless crimes.When there is no victim, there is nobody to report the crime. Therefore, it is up to the police to "generate" crimes. There is no moral or fair way to do this; therefore, it causes a lack of respect for police, and causes the police to use unethical methods. Busting down a door and arresting a pot smoker is how you "solve" victimless crimes. That generates bad will.If you look at a crime like murder, police have no incentive to generate crimes -- murder looks bad on their statistics, and the victims family demands justice. A solved crime generates respect for the police, which motivates them to be more honest and ethical and to try harder and to develop community ties.You just keep lobbing these softballs.....

[85suited 0]

are we still debating whether an officer of the law can ask for your "papers" after you have violated the law?Really?the language in the law enables scrutiny only of people who police stop, detain or arrest. In the bill officers are barred from "solely" using race as grounds for suspecting someone is in the country illegally.The Arizona law also makes it a state crime to lack immigration paper....DUH - you are here IL LEGALLY...This all seems pretty reasonable to me

[phlegm 6]

are we still debating whether an officer of the law can ask for your "papers" after you have violated the law?Really?the language in the law enables scrutiny only of people who police stop, detain or arrest. In the bill officers are barred from "solely" using race as grounds for suspecting someone is in the country illegally.The Arizona law also makes it a state crime to lack immigration paper....DUH - you are here IL LEGALLY...This all seems pretty reasonable to me

Stop mking sense, you racist.

[LongLiveYorke 38]

are we still debating whether an officer of the law can ask for your "papers" after you have violated the law?

No, not really, but I guess it's easier to seem correct when you ignore the position of the other side and spout trivialities.This, by the way, is why 99% of arguments on the internet are terrible (not you, rather this tactic).

[gobears 0]

are we still debating whether an officer of the law can ask for your "papers" after you have violated the law?

I think everybody is ok with that one.Now can the police ask for your papers because you look hispanic and are just out in public minding your own business?

[85suited 0]

I think everybody is ok with that one.Now can the police ask for your papers because you look hispanic and are just out in public minding your own business?

the language in the law enables scrutiny only of people who police stop, detain or arrest. In the bill officers are barred from "solely" using race as grounds for suspecting someone is in the country illegally.

[hblask 1]

the language in the law enables scrutiny only of people who police stop, detain or arrest. In the bill officers are barred from "solely" using race as grounds for suspecting someone is in the country illegally.

So then the answer is yes, they can detain someone for minding their own business. I believe the language is "any legal contact", which means everything from caught in the act of robbing a bank to the cop waiting behind the guy in line at McDonalds.

[SweetDee 0]

So then the answer is yes, they can detain someone for minding their own business. I believe the language is "any legal contact", which means everything from caught in the act of robbing a bank to the cop waiting behind the guy in line at McDonalds.

I take back what I said, you aren't all that smart after all.