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I posted the link already, but here it is again:http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,...1893946,00.htmlYou can read the full study at CATO.org if you are in the mood for some heavy analysis. And it's not just pot, it's all drug usage.
From the story:
At the recommendation of a national commission charged with addressing Portugal's drug problem, jail time was replaced with the offer of therapy
Then the results that they tout as success are :
The paper, published by Cato in April, found that in the five years after personal possession was decriminalized, illegal drug use among teens in Portugal declined and rates of new HIV infections caused by sharing of dirty needles dropped, while the number of people seeking treatment for drug addiction more than doubled.
Of course you can choose jail or treatment most people will pick treatment. That's what I did...
However, he notes that Portugal is a small country and that the cyclical nature of drug epidemics — which tends to occur no matter what policies are in place — may account for the declines in heroin use and deaths.
I am not willing to experiment with the entire country to see if having rocks of cocaine legal in Walgreens will result in lessening of the cocaine addiction rate.It's too much of a gamble with too much at stake.
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Try sneaking across mexicos southern border,and enjoy the welcome youll recieve there.Them gestapo agents really get around.
Try doing it if you are from Honduras...Which would be hard if you are not from Honduras I guess...
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If drugs are made legal, they will be regulated by the federal government in both quantity and potency. People will still make illegal narcotics and people who want to get high and are addicted will find a way to get the more potent illegal drug.Henry, can you see the local Walgreens selling syringes and bags of heroin along with special kits to cook it down? Will they have specials on crack rocks? Buy 10 rocks and get a free pipe?Society will not ever go for this. An overwhelming amount of people do not want this, so we will continue to keeps drugs illegal, and prosecute those who break those laws.
See if we make drugs legal..like Oxycotin, then the demand will go down and people will not sell them on the street.Got it?
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Try sneaking across mexicos southern border,and enjoy the welcome youll recieve there.Them gestapo agents really get around.
This is relevant, I assume, because the US wants to be more like Mexico?
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I am not willing to experiment with the entire country to see if having rocks of cocaine legal in Walgreens will result in lessening of the cocaine addiction rate.It's too much of a gamble with too much at stake.
See, but that's called an irrational fear, because no data supports it -- in fact just the opposite.To be fair, though, I think the drop in usage is likely a random fluctuation. I think it's more likely that drug abuse is independent of law enforcement. People who want to escape for a while will escape, people who don't, don't. It's not like prohibition actually reduces availability -- in fact, it increases it to teens. Ask teens which they could get more easily -- pot or alcohol.
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This is relevant, I assume, because the US wants to be more like Mexico?
How about more like Europe?
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See, but that's called an irrational fear, because no data supports it -- in fact just the opposite.
fear of getting hit by lightning might be an irrational fear to make laws about.Fear that heavy drugs being available to everyone could result in serious issues is not so irrational.
To be fair, though, I think the drop in usage is likely a random fluctuation. I think it's more likely that drug abuse is independent of law enforcement. People who want to escape for a while will escape, people who don't, don't. It's not like prohibition actually reduces availability -- in fact, it increases it to teens. Ask teens which they could get more easily -- pot or alcohol.
But the fact that law enforcement has been more lax in terms of pot in the last few decades would indicate that it is less enforcement leading to more usage
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I love how it's been said that drug use is a victimless crime. My biggest hobby is modifying cars. I had an engine build going in december at a friends house because he a had a lot of garage space. This friend had a roommate at the time who had a boyfriend addicted to heroine and had been in and out of rehab many times (didn't work for him once) One weekend he and a few tweaker friends steal my entire engine build (about 8k worth of stuff). He was caught and said he fenced my stuff to a chop shop for money to buy heroine. I will never see my stuff (or the kid, since he disappeared as soon as his dad made his bail) again. But I would probably be insane to assume he would spend the money on heroine from a dealer, but not on heroine if he could buy it at wallgreens.And I'm sure someone will just respond that this is one isolated incident. Funny how one isolated incident can not be accepted for someone wrongfully asking about someone's legal status (as hblask pointed out in earlier posts), but many can be accepted for meth heads killing people, or tweakers robbing people, or illegals commiting other crimes.

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fear of getting hit by lightning might be an irrational fear to make laws about.Fear that heavy drugs being available to everyone could result in serious issues is not so irrational.But the fact that law enforcement has been more lax in terms of pot in the last few decades would indicate that it is less enforcement leading to more usage
OK, it's fine to be very afraid of something, but if you pursue strategies based on that fear despite actual statistical evidence otherwise, that is irrational.For example, I always find landings in a plane mildly frightening, but I know that it is safer than driving (which feels safe), so I still fly. If I acted on that fear, I would actually be adding to my risk, because per mile, driving is more dangerous.When you measure just drug use only, the drug war either has no impact, or causes a slight increase in overall drug use. If you measure the other collateral costs, such as gang violence, lost civil rights, lives destroyed by having a felony for a harmless act, costs of building prisons, police corruption, and lack of resources to pursue violent crimes, this one is not even close.So the question is, should we run our country based on fears that have no data to support them, or should we pursue rational government?
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I love how it's been said that drug use is a victimless crime. My biggest hobby is modifying cars. I had an engine build going in december at a friends house because he a had a lot of garage space. This friend had a roommate at the time who had a boyfriend addicted to heroine and had been in and out of rehab many times (didn't work for him once) One weekend he and a few tweaker friends steal my entire engine build (about 8k worth of stuff). He was caught and said he fenced my stuff to a chop shop for money to buy heroine. I will never see my stuff (or the kid, since he disappeared as soon as his dad made his bail) again. But I would probably be insane to assume he would spend the money on heroine from a dealer, but not on heroine if he could buy it at wallgreens.And I'm sure someone will just respond that this is one isolated incident. Funny how one isolated incident can not be accepted for someone wrongfully asking about someone's legal status (as hblask pointed out in earlier posts), but many can be accepted for meth heads killing people, or tweakers robbing people, or illegals commiting other crimes.
You seem to have a very fearful, narrow life. I sort of feel sorry for you.But in case you were wondering, if drugs are legal, theft would still be illegal. See, drug use is a crime against nobody; theft is a crime against another person.If your anecdote was to point out that drug laws don't work and in fact probably prevented this person from getting the help they need for fear of incarceration, then I heartily agree.In case you missed it, here are the choices:1. People who need chaos take illegal drugs and steal stuff; police have no resources to pursue it because they are too busy arresting street level dealers.2. People who need chaos take legal drugs and steal stuff; police have the resources to catch and imprison this person to prevent repeat offenses and/or get them the help they need. Meanwhile, six other addicts get the help they need because they don't fear turning themselves in.Hmmmm, which to choose, which to choose.
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You seem to have a very fearful, narrow life. I sort of feel sorry for you.Not a narrow fearful life, just dont enjoy dealing with shit like that, sort of logical, nice try though.But in case you were wondering, if drugs are legal, theft would still be illegal. See, drug use is a crime against nobody; theft is a crime against another person.In case you were wondering, if he wasn't addicted to heroine, he wouldn't have motivation to steal my shit.If your anecdote was to point out that drug laws don't work and in fact probably prevented this person from getting the help they need for fear of incarceration, then I heartily agree.Reading only the parts you want out of things and skipping over stuff like where I said he has been in and out of rehab many times isn't really fair.In case you missed it, here are the choices:1. People who need chaos take illegal drugs and steal stuff; police have no resources to pursue it because they are too busy arresting street level dealers.2. People who need chaos take legal drugs and steal stuff; police have the resources to catch and imprison this person to prevent repeat offenses and/or get them the help they need. Meanwhile, six other addicts get the help they need because they don't fear turning themselves in.So not offering programs like welfare and other funding that goes to illegals could go to our police and accomplish the same as ur 2nd choice but you still bust drug dealers.Hmmmm, which to choose, which to choose.
I'm still waiting on a response to the hypocrisy of your veiws, i.e. Zero tolerance on one native being questioned over his legal status, but many incidents of crime by illegals, or crimes where drugs were the motivating or direct causing factor, we just have to deal with, and that racism is completely intolerable, unless you're racially profiling every rich white guy as as racist, or every white cop as a racist.
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In case you were wondering, if he wasn't addicted to heroine, he wouldn't have motivation to steal my shit.
And heroin is illegal. How's that working out for you?
Reading only the parts you want out of things and skipping over stuff like where I said he has been in and out of rehab many times isn't really fair.
You gave an example where the Insane War on Drugs has failed to control the supply or demand or use of heroin. And you somehow expected me to take that as evidence that the war on drugs is a good idea? LOL.
So not offering programs like welfare and other funding that goes to illegals could go to our police and accomplish the same as ur 2nd choice but you still bust drug dealers.
If you are suggesting ending welfare, I could support that, although I do think it is probably the lowest priority item our federal government is doing. Certainly it could be a state level program so Arizona could do it however they wanted.
I'm still waiting on a response to the hypocrisy of your veiws, i.e. Zero tolerance on one native being questioned over his legal status, but many incidents of crime by illegals, or crimes where drugs were the motivating or direct causing factor, we just have to deal with, and that racism is completely intolerable, unless you're racially profiling every rich white guy as as racist, or every white cop as a racist.
I'm not even sure what you are asking. I believe all crimes should be investigated, regardless of immigrant status. I believe all consensual harmless behavior should be left alone. How is that hypocrisy?
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Try sneaking across mexicos southern border,and enjoy the welcome youll recieve there.Them gestapo agents really get around.
Whoa. I can't believe that none of the posts in this thread addressed this point. You just blew my mind. Thanks for adding such an insightful viewpoint.
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And heroin is illegal. How's that working out for you?We were talking about drugs being a victimless crime, If heroine were legal it would still be the direct factor in this crime.You gave an example where the Insane War on Drugs has failed to control the supply or demand or use of heroin. And you somehow expected me to take that as evidence that the war on drugs is a good idea? LOL.You were implying the war on drugs was stopping him from getting help, he was given plenty of help.If you are suggesting ending welfare, I could support that, although I do think it is probably the lowest priority item our federal government is doing. Certainly it could be a state level program so Arizona could do it however they wanted. I'm not even sure what you are asking. I believe all crimes should be investigated, regardless of immigrant status. I believe all consensual harmless behavior should be left alone. How is that hypocrisy? By simply opposing the bill you imply that you assume all white cops are racist, not to mention other racist statments about rich white people. You are under the stance that racism can not be tolerated. You also are of the stance that one isolated instance of abuse of the this new law is unacceptable, yet you asked me if "I was just using isolated instances to justify racism," implying that those isolated instances have to be disregarded. Hypocrisy comes from the word hypocrite, here is the definition http://www.merriam-webster.com/netdict/hypocrite
Maybe I'm just nuts but can some explain to me how assuming all white cops are racist who will abuse this law, is anything other than racial profiling and racism? Can I have some of the pot you smoke, it some how gives you the ability to read something that is not there, and answer an enitrely different question than what is being asked. I give you this as an example:I said it was unfair for you to skip over things when reading like where I said he had been to rehab many times (in response to you saying the war on drugs probably stopped him from getting help) your reply was, "You gave an example where the Insane War on Drugs has failed to control the supply or demand or use of heroin. And you somehow expected me to take that as evidence that the war on drugs is a good idea? LOL."Ummm wut? What does that have to do with you skipping what I wrote and saying the war on drugs probably prevented him from getting help, despite me saying he had help many times.Your ability to tip-toe around what is actually being discussed is amazing.*edit I forgot to point out where you say "all crimes should be invesitgated, regardless of immigrant status." Being here illegaly is a crime, you think we should investigate people being here illegaly?
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But in case you were wondering, if drugs are legal, theft would still be illegal. See, drug use is a crime against nobody; theft is a crime against another person.In case you were wondering, if he wasn't addicted to heroine, he wouldn't have motivation to steal my shit.This is a terrible argument for arguing that drugs should be illegal.Substitute if he wasn't addicted to alcohol, he wouldn't have motivation to...or if he wasn't addicted to gambling at the casino, he wouldn't have motivation to...of if he wasn't addicted to giving his girlfriend gifts he can't afford, he wouldn't have motivation to...You wouldn't make those things illegal.Should be very interesting to see if the pot bill passes in California - 10 years ago, I would have voted no mainly due to fear. Now, I'll be voting yes.

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But in case you were wondering, if drugs are legal, theft would still be illegal. See, drug use is a crime against nobody; theft is a crime against another person.In case you were wondering, if he wasn't addicted to heroine, he wouldn't have motivation to steal my shit.This is a terrible argument for arguing that drugs should be illegal.Substitute if he wasn't addicted to alcohol, he wouldn't have motivation to...or if he wasn't addicted to gambling at the casino, he wouldn't have motivation to...of if he wasn't addicted to giving his girlfriend gifts he can't afford, he wouldn't have motivation to...You wouldn't make those things illegal.Should be very interesting to see if the pot bill passes in California - 10 years ago, I would have voted no mainly due to fear. Now, I'll be voting yes.
This is also a terrible counter, any regular law abiding person would not go out and steal to get their girlfriend a gift, you also don't hear of regular cases where drunks knock over a bank to buy booze. I will agree that you can insert gambling at the casino because there are many people who would have a strong enough addiction to steal for it. The difference is drugs like heroine and meth will take any and every regular law abiding citizen and make them do things they would never dream of doing to get their drug if they can't by other means, or do things they normally wouldn't because it is the easiest way to get them. You've never hear of a casual meth user.I wish people would stop lumping pot in with hard drugs, they are not in the same league. I personally don't believe pot should be classified as a drug in the same way meth is. You can not show me a pot head and a meth addict who act exactly the same way in a real world scenario.
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FFS it's heroin. People addicted to heroines are a completely different issue.

You've never hear of a casual meth user.
The reason you don't hear about them is because they are not a problem, not because they don't exist.
I wish people would stop lumping pot in with hard drugs, they are not in the same league. I personally don't believe pot should be classified as a drug in the same way meth is. You can not show me a pot head and a meth addict who act exactly the same way in a real world scenario.
Agreed. They are totally different issues.
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Sorry, but the facts are on my side. This experiment has been done over and over. Don't be a Democrat and say that good intentions are more important than results. Results matter, and they favor decriminalization by a wide, wide margin.
Dems are your friends here. I thought you would favor principles over party identification. Don't be a Republican and slander those who have the facts on their side. :club:
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Unlike you, I use proof for my beliefs.
to bad we arent in the religion forum. we could have had a field day with this one.
This is a good post.
bad guapy. bad.
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Hi, I'm Benjaman Strawman, and I base every choice I make in my life on the law. I automatically do anything that's legal and never do anything that's illegal. So, if Pot were to be legalized, I would spend my day smoking. See, I don't actually have a mind of my own, and I shouldn't be forced to be responsible for my own choices. I think the government should tell me exactly what I can and can't do, especially on matters that don't potentially harm othersSeriously, though, this thread is making me bang my head against the wall. There is literally no self-consistent reasons why pot should be illegal.Remember, saying "I once knew this guy who smoked pot and never got a job" isn't a compelling reason. Why? Because I once knew this guy who didn't smoke pot and never got a job. That's why.Okay, that's my little blurb. I'll let H continue to devastate you guys for me. Thanks.

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But I still don't think you understand this supply and demand thing, do you? It doesn't say "supply for product X will always be the same no matter what". People don't want 'products'. They want their needs filled. Maybe if you think about that difference, you will be able to understand supply and demand.
You made absolute statements and now continue to attempt to back off and qualify. It isn't working (Despite LLY's admiration). I actually agree with some of your restatements, but those restatements are far different from where you started.
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But in case you were wondering, if drugs are legal, theft would still be illegal.
...and in case you were wondering, if asking for immigration papers was legal, racial profiling and actions outside of reasonable cause would still be illegal.
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(Despite LLY's admiration)
To clarify, my comments were about the drug part of the conversation, not the immigration part. The drug part is cut and dry, the immigration part is shaky.BG made a good comment when he pointed out that people don't immigrate to the US for jobs alone, and maybe H overlooked that point when forming some of his argument.
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Look up Needle Park if you want to see the experiment that failed with making hard drugs free. All it did was create one of the worst crime areas in Switzerland...a country that is rife with Jewish Gold!
wat.It was never free. There was problems with needle parks from illegal heroin. They selected 1,300 in 94 and started giving them free heroin. It was successful and just recently voted that it would be universal for all heroin users and now there are no more needle parks and crime has gone down. The legalisation of heroin has been a success.The best part is that I got all this from the article you posted.
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