Kk Pre-flop W/ Lag Table. Correct Play?

[CorvairShaggy 5]

First, If I am posting too much let me know. Don't want to fill up forums with idiotic garbage. Here is the setup: Very loose/agressive table. Lots of 2-3 and even a few 4 bets pre-flop. Even though it was a .50 BB table, if you wanted to see a flop be prepared to spend $2-$5. Here is the hand:Cake Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Cake-Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comCO ($56.20)Button ($49.75)SB ($51.35)BB ($55)Hero (UTG) ($80.40)MP ($21.45)Preflop: Hero is UTG with K, KHero calls $0.50, 2 folds, Button calls $0.50, SB bets $2.50, 1 fold, Hero calls $2, Button calls $2Flop: ($8) 4, 5, 6(3 players)SB bets $5.50, Hero raises to $15, Button raises to $47.25 (All-In), SB calls $43.35 (All-In), Hero ???O.k. I decided to just limp UTG because the way the table was playing there was going to be a raise, and I did not want to get into a position of inflating the pot pre-flop, or putting myself to flat a large amount and have a horrible Axx board come up. Is this the correct play????Flop came, and since I was middle position and a pretty wet flop, I decided to raise (yaaa, no MINRAISE ) not wanting to let the other 2 players draw to flush/straight cheap. If they called, then I knew I would have to be careful on turn/river because they could draw out. If I got raised/shoved on then I figured it was going to be a coin-flip marginal call, or a set and I was behind. I ruled out 2 pair because of how heavy the action had been on the table pre-flops, I could not see andybody calling with that kind of garbage, but at these stakes...... Correct thought process??Thanks!!

[TraptSteve 0]

You limped with the intention of calling?This is ok if you reraise

[CorvairShaggy 5]

Oridinarily I would limp UTG to re-raise, or just raise KK UTG, but this table was so loose I was worried about the pot getting inflated since I was OOP. If I raise, then get a call, then a re-raise from SB, then I could flat, but what happens if button shoves? The way the table was going this was a very likely scenario. I understand KK is good, but is it good enough to go all-in heads up or 3-way pre-flop?Thanks!!

[SwolyswoND 1]

You do realize you have the 2nd best hand possible? You WANT the pot inflated. Either raise pre, or if you're going to limp, rr. I honestly have no idea how to play the flop because I would never be in that spot.

I understand KK is good, but is it good enough to go all-in heads up or 3-way pre-flop?

WTF? Now you need AA to be AIPF? My head hurts.

[ghostlove 0]

as played i think you have to fold. flush draws, straight draws, you are not that big a favorite if you are ahead at all.

[cashman 0]

You have to limp w/the intention of reraising. Flatting the raise was really really bad. YOU HAVE KK, do you only want to build the pot when you have AA? I agree w/the post above, once the flop is out there, two many things have gone wrong. You very well could be ahead at this point, but you have to put your entire stack in and then cross your fingers if you do. Only one reason to limp w/KK and you got what you wanted, you just have to take advantage of it preflop and repop it. Hopefully you can get all the chips in. If he has aces oh well. I will take my chances w/KK, especially on a loose table.

[Ninja Ace 1]

At a truly lag table, and not loose passive, limp-raising KK is bad, and limp-calling KK is really bad, especially UTG.Limp raising turns your hand pretty much face up, and although sometimes you pick up a decent pot preflop, you cost yourself a ton of post flop equity.Limp calling does exactly this... puts you in retarded spots postflop against hand ranges that are wide enough to murder this board. Your hand plays the same as A-6 here as you're pretty much hoping nobody has gotten farther than one pair... and often times when you get it in you're crushed or flipping... except on the occasion you're against QQ which would have given you action regardless.I know it's shocking, but the best strategy here is to open the pot preflop with a raise. You've got five potential 3-bets in front of you, which will make it incredibly easy to get stacks in... and if you're just called you'll have the same sizing on the pot but a better idea of ranges. If you want to make a tricky move... flatting the 3bet is it, as a lot of lag players will 3bet light and fold to 4bets.

[trystero 0]

Yeah raise/gonuts preflop

[cashman 0]

Just an observation, you have 3 posts and here is the summary: Hand 1) $61.50 invested after the flop w/ace high Hand 2) $22 invested after calling a raise w/64os and trying to bluff your way through on a missed draw Hand 3) Only $17 invested w/pocket kings and in an extremely difficult spot after the flopI could be wrong, but based on these three hands you seem to overbet and overcommit w/your bluffs and under bet your big hands. If this is a trend for you, trust me it is being exploited by your opponents if they are playing with you for any extended period of time.

[CorvairShaggy 5]

O.K. So I played this horribly and WAY too cautious. I think what had me scared was I didn't want to be spewing chips into 2 other people that could have had an A and then have an A hit on the board. Also I have had a horrible run with KK recently, and that mentaly had me frozen too. I had been playing real loose, and recently tightened up which has produced better results, now I just need to get into a happy medium. Basically just an idiotic, donkey play as I see now. But, I think my post read was good as by my thinking in the post earlier, BUT I should have never let it go to this unless it was a shove pre.Now, next time with a high pair I think you are about 3/1 to win the hand. With high pair (QQ KK AA) on a loose table, you would want to open-raise UTG and hope to get into a 3/4 bet opponent(s) fold or me shove? Basically fight the battle pre-flop and win and try not to go post. If it goes post, that is where you would want to be a little more cautious depending on the board or just cross fingers and hope?? Here is how the rest played out:Flop: ($8) 4, 5, 6(3 players)SB bets $5.50, Hero raises to $15, Button raises to $47.25 (All-In), SB calls $43.35 (All-In), Hero foldsButton shows 5c5sSB shows 9dAdTurn: ($119.10) 10(2 players, 2 all-in)River: ($119.10) 7(2 players, 2 all-in)Total pot: $119.10 | Rake: $3

[mtdesmoines 3]

You are playing at a LAG table and you did NOT open with KK and you did not 3 bet when raised?

[CorvairShaggy 5]

Just an observation, you have 3 posts and here is the summary: Hand 1) $61.50 invested after the flop w/ace high Hand 2) $22 invested after calling a raise w/64os and trying to bluff your way through on a missed draw Hand 3) Only $17 invested w/pocket kings and in an extremely difficult spot after the flopI could be wrong, but based on these three hands you seem to overbet and overcommit w/your bluffs and under bet your big hands. If this is a trend for you, trust me it is being exploited by your opponents if they are playing with you for any extended period of time.

EXACTLY! You about have me nailed. (Like it was hard ) Playing too loose (Hand 1) then too tight (Hand 3). Need to get a happy medium. Although, the hands I have posted here are not a good represntation. I only posted those because I needed to try to learn from the really bad mistakes.I have not been playing alot of ring, mostly $8/$16 SNG 6-Max Super-Turbos and low stakes MTTs. I use the SNG to build up the bankroll, then donk it back off at the ring table. I had been playing real loose, but tightned up the past week and I have only had 1 losing session (small loss) in the past week, but only play about 30min/1 hour sessions, so not enough data to make a good assumption. I play at Cake (mostly because I have alot of bonus cash pending and I have alot of gold chips/cards), but since I cannot find a poker tracker stlyle of software for Cake, I am thinking of moving to PS after I use up my bonus cash. I need to get better stats on my play to start trying to plug some major holes (runways actually). I have played off and on for 10 years and only the past 2 months have I tried to start playing more seriously. (Even though my posts don't show that, yet).

[trystero 0]

You need to start plugging basic leaks, not even worrying about tracking software. Like here you're afraid to get the money all-in preflop with KK. Were you really scared of that result or are we misunderstanding you? Because if you are, then you've got to re-evaluate basically your whole approach to poker.

[BaseJester 1]

EXACTLY! You about have me nailed. (Like it was hard ) Playing too loose (Hand 1) then too tight (Hand 3). Need to get a happy medium.

It's not really the loose/tight spectrum that's the problem. It's FPS. Allow me to quote a sillier and angrier version of myself from an old thread:"Mixing it up" doesn't magically rationalize anything you do. The goal of poker is not to trick the villains; the goal of poker is to win money. If you trick the villains (say, by convincing them you don't have AA) it doesn't matter unless it gets you money.It's like you walk up to a pencil sharpener, pencil in hand, and think, "Everyone expects me to sharpen this pencil, but I'm going to mix it up." Then you whip out your cock and sharpen that instead and yell, "Ha ha, bitches, you never saw that coming!"Well, no, they didn't. But you still have a dull pencil and bleeding dick.

[CorvairShaggy 5]

You need to start plugging basic leaks, not even worrying about tracking software. Like here you're afraid to get the money all-in preflop with KK. Were you really scared of that result or are we misunderstanding you? Because if you are, then you've got to re-evaluate basically your whole approach to poker.

Yes, I was afraid of getting it all in pre-flop, mostly because I have been getting killed recently on "all-in" pre-flop play. Even with KK and AA pre I have been getting killed. I posted a thread in Bad Beats section recently about how I lost 12 hands with pocket KKs in a row in 1 week. I played them all different ways pre and post and the outcome was the same. This bad play may have just been a mental lock-up. I need to get over the "Kingphobia". Maybe after today's lesson I can get over it. "It's not really the loose/tight spectrum that's the problem. It's FPS."Good point. I have been watching alot of PokerVT videos, and that maybe mentally I am taking in too much and it is a bad influence? Trying over-complicated stuff at lower stakes tables and not really knowing how to execute well. Not the case in this particular hand, but something to think about.Thanks guys for the kick in the ass. I feel better now.

[Ninja Ace 1]

"Mixing it up" doesn't magically rationalize anything you do. It's like you walk up to a pencil sharpener, pencil in hand, and think, "Everyone expects me to sharpen this pencil, but I'm going to mix it up." Then you whip out your cock and sharpen that instead and yell, "Ha ha, bitches, you never saw that coming!" Well, no, they didn't. But you still have a dull pencil and bleeding dick.

so sigged

[Biff Goods 0]

First, If I am posting too much let me know. Don't want to fill up forums with idiotic garbage. Here is the setup: Very loose/agressive table. Lots of 2-3 and even a few 4 bets pre-flop. Even though it was a .50 BB table, if you wanted to see a flop be prepared to spend $2-$5. Here is the hand:Cake Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Cake-Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comCO ($56.20)Button ($49.75)SB ($51.35)BB ($55)Hero (UTG) ($80.40)MP ($21.45)Preflop: Hero is UTG with K, KHero calls $0.50,

.....and that's the end of this one.....next.....

[pokerinc 0]

the way you played it you can check fold this flop imo.not saying that's a profitable move, I'm just saying with your pre-flop line you're lost in a super connected board with way too many people in the hand and there's no way to safely navigate the rest of this hand.

[Fluffdog87 2]

You are playing at a LAG table and you did NOT open with KK and you did not 3 bet when raised?

agreeshovel $ in preflop

[cujo33 0]

You need to start plugging basic leaks, not even worrying about tracking software. Like here you're afraid to get the money all-in preflop with KK. Were you really scared of that result or are we misunderstanding you? Because if you are, then you've got to re-evaluate basically your whole approach to poker.

Completly agree. Don't make past results get to you in a way that have you making wrong decisions at the table. Also don't worry about posting too much. If you have questions ask, its what these forums are used for.