BillyPilgrim 1 Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Next step is for him to work on his playoff pitching.stugotz: wah. Link to post Share on other sites
timwakefield 68 Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 Verlander wins MVP.Gay. Maybe there just wasn't another obvious candidate, but if Pedro didn't win it in '00 then a pitcher with a significantly worse season than Pedro's '00 season shouldn't win it either (2000 was the season he set the all-time record for single-season WHIP and single-season ERA+). Yes I'm a homer. But Verlander posted a .920 WHIP and a 170 ERA+ this year. Pedro's superhuman record-setting numbers were .737 and 291. 291!!!Verlanders WAR this season was an impressive 8.6. Pedro's in 2000 was 10.1.I think too much emphasis is put on making the playoffs in the MVP balloting, and Bautista should have won it (Ellsbury had too many other great bats in the lineup helping the Sox win). Link to post Share on other sites
BillyPilgrim 1 Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 Gay. Maybe there just wasn't another obvious candidate, but if Pedro didn't win it in '00 then a pitcher with a significantly worse season than Pedro's '00 season shouldn't win it either (2000 was the season he set the all-time record for single-season WHIP and single-season ERA+).you do know this is a terrible argument, right? Link to post Share on other sites
BigDMcGee 3,352 Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 I don't think pitchers should be eligible for MVP period. Maybe they should change the name of the award to the most valuable position player award. Link to post Share on other sites
BillyPilgrim 1 Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 i've said before that they need to do away with the MVP award all-together.AL/NL Offensive Player of the YearAL/NL Starting/Relief Pitcher of the Year Link to post Share on other sites
mrdannyg 274 Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 i've said before that they need to do away with the MVP award all-together.AL/NL Offensive Player of the YearAL/NL Starting/Relief Pitcher of the YearThis would be much better.Still, the whole thing is dumb. There at least needs to be a reasonable basis for voting. I saw two major national sportswriters use the "where would his team be without him" award to give it to Verlander.It is doubly ridiculous that Bautista finished so far back because some people put him as far as 7th on their ballot. There is really no reasonable argument that doesn't have Ellsbury and Bautista as your top two. Anything else is just people purposely misinterpreting the definition to vote for who they like, or really really liking the "pitcher wins" stat. Link to post Share on other sites
mrdannyg 274 Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 I love this:Perception of Verlander's value...in graph form! Link to post Share on other sites
Dread Aidan 8 Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 you do know this is a terrible argument, right?I hope he does.For whatever it's worth, Verlander had a higher "WPA+" than Bautista, Ellsbury, or Cabrera. Of course, James Shields was slightly higher than Verlander, so there's that.I don't have a problem with pitchers being eligible for MVP. We can't figure out if a pitcher was more valuable than a position player? Compare the impact a position player has with his 20-25 at-bats per five games versus the impact a starting pitcher has on his 25-30 hitters faced per five games. Can't we figure this out? Link to post Share on other sites
CaneBrain 95 Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 I love this:Perception of Verlander's value...in graph form! That was pretty amazing.Also, the DH is stupid. Link to post Share on other sites
mrdannyg 274 Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 I hope he does.For whatever it's worth, Verlander had a higher "WPA+" than Bautista, Ellsbury, or Cabrera. Of course, James Shields was slightly higher than Verlander, so there's that.I don't have a problem with pitchers being eligible for MVP. We can't figure out if a pitcher was more valuable than a position player? Compare the impact a position player has with his 20-25 at-bats per five games versus the impact a starting pitcher has on his 25-30 hitters faced per five games. Can't we figure this out?I actually really like WPA as a stat. It won't answer a "who is better" in a completely objective way, but it does give a clear picture of a player's contribution. Sure, a player on a better team is favoured, but is that so terrible? We all do that in our minds anyway, and the awards races clearly reflect that.Plus, since WPA is zero-sum stat, it does a great job of comparing pitcher and position player contributions.One thing WPA does not account for that would be interesting is the team's playoff chances. Imagine a WPA-like stat that was predicated on a team making the playoffs, as opposed to just winning that game? Again, couldn't be used objectively, since it would be dependent on things happening in other games and hugely favour anyone in a tight playoff race, but it kind of seems like a sportswriters dream, no? Link to post Share on other sites
BigDMcGee 3,352 Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 I don't have a problem with pitchers being eligible for MVP. We can't figure out if a pitcher was more valuable than a position player? Compare the impact a position player has with his 20-25 at-bats per five games versus the impact a starting pitcher has on his 25-30 hitters faced per five games. Can't we figure this out?My issue isn't that we can't figure out if a pitcher is more valuable than a position player, how ever you want to define it. My issue is the Pitchers already have an award that goes ( or should go) to the pitcher with the most value, that position players are not eligible for. Pitchers and position players are so different that I don't think they should be compared, for the purposes of award giving. Link to post Share on other sites
Dread Aidan 8 Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 My issue isn't that we can't figure out if a pitcher is more valuable than a position player, how ever you want to define it.Says you.My issue is the Pitchers already have an award that goes ( or should go) to the pitcher with the most value, that position players are not eligible for.Pitchers have a separate award because 19 times out of 20 (or whatever) a pitcher won't be the most valuable player. But sometimes they are. Maybe.Pitchers and position players are so different that I don't think they should be compared, for the purposes of award giving.All sports have significantly different types of players eligible for the same awards. Just because it's hard to compare doesn't mean we should abandon all hope of figuring out how to do it.MDG: Has a goalie ever won the Hart trophy? Wait, don't answer that*, Google will surely know.*I mean, I haven't even posted it, so it would be hard for you to answer it. Looks like Jose Theodore won it last in 2001-02. Link to post Share on other sites
wsox8 10 Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 there should just be the Cy Young and the Hank Aaron award Link to post Share on other sites
BigDMcGee 3,352 Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 Pitchers have a separate award because 19 times out of 20 (or whatever) a pitcher won't be the most valuable player. But sometimes they are. Maybe.And in the years the pitcher wins the award, position players aren't given an comparable award, and the pitcher gets two awards.All sports have significantly different types of players eligible for the same awards. Just because it's hard to compare doesn't mean we should abandon all hope of figuring out how to do it.Again, I am not arguing that it CAN'T be done. I'm arguing that it shouldn't be done, and that it's unfair fair to deny position players an MVP award and give a pitcher Two defacto MVP's. If you want pitchers eligible for the MVP, then get rid of the cy young. Link to post Share on other sites
BigDMcGee 3,352 Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 there should just be the Cy Young and the Hank Aaron awardI would have no problem with that, if you changed the Hank Aaron from a pure hitting award into a positional player award. a "best position player" award should take fielding and base running into consideration. Link to post Share on other sites
Dread Aidan 8 Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 Yeah, I don't really care if a position player doesn't win a comparable award some years.If you want your own award, how 'bout you just play better?-Stugotz, probably Link to post Share on other sites
Dread Aidan 8 Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 Ryan Braun beats out Matt Kemp.I would've voted for Kemp, but I don't think Braun was a bad choice. Link to post Share on other sites
timwakefield 68 Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 you do know this is a terrible argument, right? Yes I'm a homer.I think I made it pretty clear that yes, it's not a reasonable argument, I'm just still bitter that Petey never won the MVP (he finished 2nd and 5th, in '99 and '00 respectively). Link to post Share on other sites
mrdannyg 274 Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 MDG: Has a goalie ever won the Hart trophy? Wait, don't answer that*, Google will surely know.*I mean, I haven't even posted it, so it would be hard for you to answer it. Looks like Jose Theodore won it last in 2001-02.Some of the same arguments are made in hockey every year. People care less though.If I'm remembering correctly (possible, though unlikely), the Vezina used to be given to the goalie with the best save percentage. They changed it, so now there is an award for that (Jennings) and another for best goalie. Often, they are not given to the same. Since they changed the "best goalie" award to actually award the best goalie, giving the Hart to a goalie has become much less popular.Ryan Braun beats out Matt Kemp.I would've voted for Kemp, but I don't think Braun was a bad choice.I would've voted for Kemp too, but glad to see at least those guys got all (almost all?) the 1st and 2nd place votes. No dopes voting Kemp 7th or anything just because his team didn't contend. Link to post Share on other sites
BillyPilgrim 1 Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 the red sox hire bobby valentine. so terrible. but glad he wont be on espn anymore, i cut myself listening to his idiocy. Link to post Share on other sites
CaneBrain 95 Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 Wtf marlins... Link to post Share on other sites
BillyPilgrim 1 Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 odds on how long until both hanley and jose are on the DL together? Link to post Share on other sites
FCP Bob 1,312 Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 Wtf marlins...Hard to get used to them spending money isn't it Link to post Share on other sites
timwakefield 68 Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 Maybe Hanley at third will equal less injuries for him? Maybe that's just a pipe dream though. At least the Marlins didn't overpay Reyes as much as the Sox and Nats overpaid Crawford and Werth though, respectively.Pretty sad/embarrassing that Reyes's final legacy with the Mets will be sitting out the last game of the season so he could win a batting title. That was the worst. And what made it even more poignantly awful was that it came 70 years to the day after Ted Williams played both games of a meaningless double-header, starting the day at .400 and then going 6 for motherfucking 8. Link to post Share on other sites
CaneBrain 95 Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 Hard to get used to them spending money isn't itIt seems more unlikely than signing the big 3. Word is they are not done either. Crazy. Link to post Share on other sites
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