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http://www.theonion.com/articles/pope-vows...-accepta,17201/Pope Vows To Get Church Pedophilia Down To Acceptable LevelsApril 5, 2010 | ISSUE 46•14 03.31.99 VATICAN CITY—Calling the behavior shameful, sinful, and much more frequent than the Vatican was comfortable with, Pope Benedict XVI vowed this week to bring the widespread pedophilia within the Roman Catholic Church down to a more manageable level.Addressing thousands gathered at St. Peter's Square on Easter Sunday, the pontiff offered his "most humble apologies" to abuse victims, and pledged to reduce the total number of molestations by 60 percent over the next five years."This is absolutely unacceptable," Pope Benedict said. "It seems a weakening of faith in God has prevented our priests from exercising moderation when sexually abusing helpless minors.""And let me remind our clergy of the holy vows they all took when they entered the priesthood," he continued. "They should know that they're only allowed one small child every other month."The pope said he was deeply disappointed to learn that the number of children sexually abused by priests was almost 10 times beyond the allowable limit clearly outlined in church doctrine. Admitting for the first time in public that the overindulgent touching of "tender, tender young flesh" had become a full-blown crisis, the Holy Father vowed to implement new reforms to bring the pedophilia rate back down to five children per 1,000 clergy."The truth is there will always be a little bit of molestation—it's simply unavoidable," Vatican spokesperson Rev. Federico Lombardi said. "But the fact that young boys have gotten much more attractive over the past few decades is no excuse for the blatant defiance of church limits that have been in place for centuries.""The majority of priests don't want to molest kids at all," he added. "But for those who do, we must make sure they're doing it at a reasonable rate."Following the pope's speech, the Vatican released a statement outlining its plan to reduce pedophilia. Starting next year, specially trained cardinals will make unannounced visits to inspect and observe random churches in order to ensure they are not going beyond diocese-wide molestation caps. The inspector-cardinals will grade each parish based on long, private interviews with altar boys in darkened church basements, and careful observation of priests' sexual activity.These senior officials will also have the authority to enforce harsh punishments for any clergy member violating his allotment of pedophilia."If a priest goes even one child over the limit, there will be hell to pay," said Prefect Emeritus of the Congregation for Bishops Giovanni Battista Re, explaining the Vatican's new "Three Strikes, You're Out Rule." "After the third offense, the offending priest will immediately be moved to another parish. This will give officials time to investigate the case, and will act as an effective deterrent since it usually takes months for priests to gain the trust of the new children."As a "goodwill measure," Cardinal Re said all churches will also be required to display a sign next to the altar showing the number of days since the last molestation.Criticism of the pope's new plan has already begun to emerge from within the Catholic Church itself. Rev. Walter Moore, a pastor at St. Peter's in Chicago, questioned the Vatican's methodology in calculating the molestation rates, saying the church's inconsistent definition of pedophilia may have skewed the numbers."Is it technically pedophilia if the child's clothes are fully on the entire time? What if he's asleep when it happens?" Moore said. "It's time we had some clear guidance from Rome on this issue. For instance, the church counts it as one incident regardless of whether the child is molested multiple times by the same individual or by two priests at once. That's just plain wrong.""Plus, if it's supposed to be a special secret between the priest and the boy, is it even any of the church's business in the first place?" he added. "Maybe Brandon is just trying to get attention."The Vatican would not release details of the pope's upcoming world tour, in which he plans to clear up any confusion on the matter by personally demonstrating what constitutes molestation.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8601084.stmPope Benedict's personal preacher has compared criticism of the pontiff and Church over child abuse to "collective violence" suffered by the Jews.The Rev Raniero Cantalamessa was speaking at Good Friday prayers in St Peter's Basilica, attended by the Pope.In his sermon, he quoted a Jewish friend as saying the accusations reminded him of the "more shameful aspects of anti-Semitism".His comments angered Jewish groups and those representing abuse victims.Father Cantalamessa said Jews throughout history had been the victims of "collective violence" and drew a comparison with recent attacks on the Roman Catholic Church.He read the congregation part of a letter from a Jewish friend who said he was "following with disgust the violent and concentric attacks against the Church, the Pope..."The use of stereotypes, the shifting of personal responsibility and guilt to a collective guilt remind me of the most shameful aspects of anti-Semitism," he quoted from the letter.Father Cantalamessa, the preacher to the papal household, is the only person allowed to preach to the Pope.The BBC's David Willey, in Rome, says the comments show the Church is continuing to defend itself rigorously and outspokenly against accusations of having systematically covered up cases of sexual abuse by priests in recent decades.Vatican spokesman the Rev Federico Lombardi later contacted the Associated Press news agency to say Father Cantalamessa was not speaking as a Vatican official.He said such a comparison could "lead to misunderstandings and is not an official position of the Catholic Church".But Stephan Kramer, general-secretary of Germany's Central Council of Jews, described the remarks as offensive and repulsive."So far I haven't seen St Peter's burning, nor were there outbursts of violence against Catholic priests," he said."I'm without words. The Vatican is now trying to turn the perpetrators into victims."Peter Isely, spokesman for the US victim support group Snap, said the sermon had been "reckless and irresponsible".He said: "They're sitting in the papal palace, they're experiencing a little discomfort, and they're going to compare themselves to being rounded up or lined up and sent in cattle cars to Auschwitz?"You cannot be serious."Rabbi Gary Greenebaum, of the American Jewish Committee, called Father Cantalamessa's comments "an unfortunate use of language"."The collective violence against the Jews resulted in the death of six million, while the collective violence spoken of here has not led to murder and destruction, but perhaps character assault," he said.Pope accusedThe Roman Catholic Church has been embroiled in fresh allegations of child sex abuse by priests, most recently in Germany.The Pope has been accused of failing to take action against a suspected abuser during his tenure as archbishop of Munich - a claim the Vatican strongly denies.Critics also say that when he was head of the Vatican office dealing with sex abuse, he did not act against a US priest who is thought to have abused some 200 deaf boys.Thousands of pilgrims are in Rome for the Easter rituals.Following the service at St Peter's Basilica, the Pope went to Rome's Colosseum for the Way of the Cross procession commemorating Christ's crucifixion.During the procession, the Pope spoke briefly about the evening's religious observances before blessing the crowd, prompting cheers and some shouts of "Long live the Pope".On Saturday, he is to lead an Easter vigil service in St Peter's and on Sunday he is due to deliver his traditional Urbi et Orbi - to the city and the world - message and blessing.
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Pope tied to another abuse case of Arizona priest that Vatican waited years to defrockHe was alerted 12 years before Tucson priest was finally defrockedBy Matt Sedensky Associated PressUpdated: 04/02/2010 11:28:18 PM CDTThe future Pope Benedict XVI took over the abuse case of an Arizona priest, then let it languish at the Vatican for years despite repeated pleas from the bishop for the man to be removed from the priesthood, according to church correspondence. Documents reviewed by the Associated Press show that in the 1990s, a church tribunal found that the Rev. Michael Teta of Tucson, Ariz., had molested children as far back as the late 1970s. The panel deemed his behavior — including allegations that he abused boys in a confessional — almost "satanic." The tribunal referred his case to then-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, who would become pope in 2005. But it took 12 years from the time Ratzinger assumed control of the case in a signed letter until Teta was formally removed from ministry, a step only the Vatican can take. As abuse cases with the pontiff's fingerprints mushroom, Teta's case and that of another Arizona priest cast further doubt on the church's insistence that the future pope played no role in shielding pedophiles. Teta was accused of engaging in abuse not long after coming to the Diocese of Tucson, Ariz., in 1978. Among the eventual allegations: That he molested two boys, ages 7 and 9, in the confessional as they prepared for their First Communion. Bishop Manuel Moreno held a church tribunal for Teta, which determined "there is almost a satanic quality in his mode of acting toward young men and boys." Teta was removed from ministry by the --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Advertisement --------------------------------------------------------------------------------bishop, but because the church's most severe punishment — laicization — can only be handed down from Rome, he remained on the church payroll and was working with young people outside the church. At the time, Ratzinger headed the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, the office that typically handled cases of abuse in confessionals. The church considers those more serious than other molestations because they also defile the sacrament of penance. In a signed letter dated June 8, 1992, Ratzinger advised Moreno he was taking control of the case, according to a copy provided to the Associated Press from Lynne Cadigan, an attorney who represented two of Teta's victims. Five years later, no action had been taken. "This case has already gone on for seven years," Moreno wrote Ratzinger on April 28, 1997, adding, "I make this plea to you to assist me in every way you can to expedite this case." It would be another seven years before Teta was laicized. "There's no doubt that Ratzinger delayed the defrocking process of dangerous priests who were deemed 'satanic' by their own bishop," Cadigan said. Another Tucson case, that of Msgr. Robert Trupia, shows the fragmented nature of how Rome handled such allegations before 2001, when Ratzinger dictated that all abuse cases must go through his Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith. Before then, files were sent to varied Vatican departments, as they were in the case of Trupia. Moreno suspended Trupia in 1992 but again faced delays from the Vatican in having him formally removed from the church. Documents show at least two Vatican offices — the Congregation for the Clergy and the Apostolic Signatura, the highest judicial authority of the Catholic Church — were involved in the case at least as early as 1995. Moreno pleaded with the Congregation for the Clergy to do something, writing, "We have proofs of civil crimes against people who were under his priestly care" and warning Trupia could "be the source of greater scandal in the future." Ultimately, the case landed in Ratzinger's office. On Feb. 10, 2003, a day after the Arizona Daily Star reported that Trupia was living in a condo near Baltimore, driving a leather-seated Mercedes-Benz with a rosary hanging from the rearview mirror, Moreno wrote to Ratzinger again, calling him "a major risk factor to the children, adolescents and adults that he may have contact with." There is no indication in the case files that Ratzinger responded. Sick with prostate cancer and the beginning stages of Parkinson's disease, Moreno was approved for early retirement by Pope John Paul II. Before he was replaced, the bishop wrote Ratzinger yet again. Moreno's replacement, Bishop Gerald Kicanas, sent similarly dire requests to Ratzinger and his subordinates. Finally, in August 2004, Trupia was laicized. "The tragedy is that the bishops have only two choices: Follow the Vatican's code of secrecy and delay, or leave the church," Cadigan, the victims' lawyer, said Friday. "It's unfortunate that their faith demands that they sacrifice children to follow the Vatican's directions." Fred Allison, a spokesman for the Roman Catholic Diocese of Tucson, defended the Vatican's handling of the Teta and Trupia cases. Internal church trials took years and the priests' appeals took years more, Allison said. "There is no indication at all that the Vatican was delaying or dragging its feet," he said. Trupia's former attorney, Stephen Shechtel of Rockville, Md., said Friday that he never dealt with the church on his client's behalf and that Trupia was aware he would be defrocked and didn't fight it.

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I don't think we need a thread on why the Catholic church is awful. Next up for a new topic: Muslim terrorists don't like Jews or Christians!

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I cant even imagine how bad it musta been for kids in the middle ages, when accusations against priests could get you burned at the stake.I really have doubts that the molesting of kids by priests is a recent phenomena.

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I don't think we need a thread on why the Catholic church is awful. Next up for a new topic: Muslim terrorists don't like Jews or Christians!
The pope has been involved. Its thread worthy.I for one am delighted. They ruined my country in more than one way, they've already lost their stranglehold so hopefully this helps kill them off.
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where you from, Ireland?While this article is correct to point out that many public services in Ireland are still provided by the Catholic church, I think the combination of declining church attendance, the public outcry at the passing of last year's blasphemy laws, and the general disgust over the child rape scandals show that Ireland is slowly moving away from Catholicism in general, and religion in particular.I think this is a good thing, or to quote journalist Fintan O'Toole:"It was good while it lasted. For about six years from the mid 1990s until late 2001, Ireland felt free. At last, free from the pain and bitterness of forced emigration. Free from the sense of inferiority that comes with a long history of failure, and the exaggerated defense of national self-regard that always accompanies and shadows that emotion. Free from the hopeless feeling of being locked into an insoluble ethnic and sectarian conflict. Free from the authoritarian religiosity that compensated for the absence of civic morality. Free from the need to celebrate picturesque poverty as a way of making a virtue of grim necessity.In those years, Ireland was raw and sometimes vulgar. It was poorly-led and hampered by a lack of long term vision and genuine public ambition. It was chaotic, sometimes to the point of anarchy. But there was the ultimate ground for optimism. It was obvious that things could change for the better, because they were in the course of doing so. People who had been unemployed were now working. People who'd been forced to live in the U.S. or the U.K. were coming home. Long derelict sites were being filled, if not with fine buildings than at least with something other than weeds and litter. Change wasn't just in the air, it was visible and tangible.This was a tonic for a culture that had been steeped in fatalism. Some of the attractive sides of Irish life have been underpinned by that fatalism, the idea that things will probably remain terrible in the long run, but there wasn't much we could do about it, and that we might have a good time while we're waiting. But for a while, it seemed that the Irish could have a good time without expecting the worst to arrive eventually. There was an exuberance to Irish life, but one which seemed to be compatible with hard work and ambition. The strengths that had always been brought to bear by the Irish in exile (resourcefulness, adaptability, energy) seemed finally to have found their place at home."--------For 33-year-old Paul Dunbar, the child abuse scandals in Ireland's Roman Catholic Church were the final straw. Like many of his contemporaries, Dunbar was baptized as a child, but had slowly drifted away from the Catholic faith until he found himself a complete atheist by his late 20s.Then came the publication last year of two government reports that detailed the systematic abuse of Irish children by monks, priests and nuns, and the cover-up by the church hierarchy.Dunbar was moved to formally quit the church, a lengthy process known as "defection." And, says the graduate student from Cork, "it's not as easy as you might think."So in order to help others who want to defect, Dunbar set up a Web site, Count Me Out, which outlines the steps needed to officially part from the church.A poll commissioned earlier this year by the Irish Times found that 74 percent of people polled said the church had not responded adequately to the scandals revealed in last year's reports.But the church is so deeply woven into the fabric of Irish life, it is difficult for many ordinary Irish people to distance themselves from it. The church is involved in education and health care, and its imprint on the Irish national identity is deep. Eoin Smith, 33, an accountant, stopped practicing as a Catholic when he left high school. He is now a self-proclaimed atheist.Like Dunbar, he feels strongly about the abuse within the church, and wanted to leave it. But his wife suggested that he not be too hasty. Their two-year-old son Oisin will in a few years reach school age.Ninety-two percent of primary schools are still run by the Catholic Church and most of the best schools are Catholic."With a Catholic school they can turn you down if you're not Catholic, so my wife said let's keep up the pretense for a little longer," Smith says. "And then maybe we can slink into the school we want. And then we can think about officially leaving the church."Smith says he and his wife are considering baptism for their son before he turns four to more easily obtain a place in school. Smith says he is not particularly proud that he has put off his defection, but he calls it a classic Irish compromise — "a little bit hypocritical to get the best result I want.""Everyone is making the same kind of compromises, simply because that is the way Irish society is structured," Smith says.A report last May ordered by the Irish government revealed that the Catholic church covered up almost four decades of sexual and physical abuse by priests and nuns against thousands of children in state care. Another report revealed that pedophile priests had engaged in sex abuse between 1975 and 2004 and several bishops had mismanaged victims' complaints.The recent Irish Times poll showed that 61 percent of respondents said the church should give up its control of the school system.But if public sentiment against the church is growing, Dunbar says apathy prevents disaffected Catholics from officially leaving the church. Their continuing presence on the rolls inflates the church's membership. In helping others to defect, Dunbar says he hopes that will diminish the church's influence on the state. "On census forms, lots of people fill out 'Catholic' as though it's an ethnic group, not a religious belief. It's almost like a blood type," he says. "We are trying to change that. We are trying to say you can still be spiritual, hold Christian values, but unless you formally defect, you are still officially part of the church."As for the faithful within the Catholic church, it has been a hard year."It's a very difficult time to be a committed Roman Catholic in Ireland," says Breda O'Brien, who teaches religious education at a Roman Catholic school in central Dublin, and also writes a column for The Irish Times on religion."There has been scandal after scandal, compounded by mismanagement within the church," O'Brien says. "The church has not covered itself in glory."But O'Brien insists that people should not disregard the spiritual aspects of the church because of the misdeeds of its clerics."No one can deny the problems the church has had, but that does not make everything the church does wrong," she says.She recalls how one critic recently called her an apologist for child abuse when she tried to point to the good work the church still does in society.O'Brien supports more separation between the church and Irish society. There are more secular schools being set up, and the church has said it is committed to withdrawing slowly from the education system if that is what people want.She says the transition period will be difficult as Irish society tries to work out the new balance between the religious and the secular. And she fears in many ways that consumerism and materialism has replaced Catholicism as the credo of the new Irish society.O'Brien says the days are long gone of children accepting something because a teacher says it is so."I find the idea of brainwashing teenagers hilarious. If you want to try it I would just wish you lots and lots of luck," says O'Brien. "The only successful indoctrinators in the world today are the marketers, the ones who make young children insecure about how they look or weigh or the brands they buy. They are the successful indoctrinators now, not the churches."http://www.npr.org/t...oryId=124627338

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Yep Irish.Interesting piece by Fintant O'Toole.Although my hatred for them began just because I love Irish history so much. Our constitution, each amendment had to be cleared by the arch bishop of Ireland. One of our greatest leaders Parnell(a Protestant) was hamstrung by them. So many examples down the years, they hampered our fight for independence on almost every occasion giving political speeches from their alters.

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The school thing is downright scary. I have a good friend from Ireland and she despises the politicains. There is a job freeze in her profession, medical field, and has been out work 10 months. She also has a nursing degree from the states and they consider it toilet paper there.

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I don't think we need a thread on why the Catholic church is awful. Next up for a new topic: Muslim terrorists don't like Jews or Christians!
I think we do because they reached a new low. Speaking on Easter and comparing legitimate/proven accusations that Cardinals at the highest levels of the Church covered up the abuse of children for decades---to----"petty gossip" is basically indefensible.At this point, the Catholic Church is basically indefensible. And that is thread-worthy. These assholes just don't get it and it is sickening.
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I think we do because they reached a new low. Speaking on Easter and comparing legitimate/proven accusations that Cardinals at the highest levels of the Church covered up the abuse of children for decades---to----"petty gossip" is basically indefensible.At this point, the Catholic Church is basically indefensible. And that is thread-worthy. These assholes just don't get it and it is sickening.
I also think that the leading Christian in the world and the head of Catholicism was directly involved in the cover up was pretty thread worthy as well. In matters of faith and morals, the pope speaks in the name of Christ and the faithful are to accept their teaching and adhere to it with a religious assentSo, if he was speaking in the name of Christ, did Christ tell him to bury the child abuse for fear it would hurt donations to the church? Did Christ tell him not to worry if the priest in quesiton would molest more children? Did he tell the pope to re-assign the priest(s) so that they could have ample opportunity to do it again? Did confession and the counseling in the church not work? How many decades has the church been covering up and ignoring a huge problem with reckless disregard for children?I think we all know the answer here. Religon is simply a money making organization and they were worried about the bottom line profit.
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At this point, the Catholic Church is basically indefensible. And that is thread-worthy. These assholes just don't get it and it is sickening.
Which I personally think is a Good Thing. For some reason it is not until there are exceedingly absurd consequences that people feel free to criticize religion.
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Dawkins wants the Pope arrested if he comes to England.So this is actually interesting to me. On one hand, hell yeah the guy should be arrested if he was involved in covering up child molestations and keeping priests active when they were obviously dangerous to any children around them. On the other hand, Dawkins is using an awful thing to further his own personal vendetta against organized religion. But does the underlying motivation make him wrong?I'm not sure if I love it or hate it.
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Dawkins wants the Pope arrested if he comes to England.So this is actually interesting to me. On one hand, hell yeah the guy should be arrested if he was involved in covering up child molestations and keeping priests active when they were obviously dangerous to any children around them. On the other hand, Dawkins is using an awful thing to further his own personal vendetta against organized religion. But does the underlying motivation make him wrong?I'm not sure if I love it or hate it.
I say arrest his ass and let him have some of the feeling in prison that the poor molested kids felt. Eye for an eye and all, ya know.
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An East Longmeadow priest called yesterday from his pulpit for Pope Benedict XVI to step down, demanding greater protection of children and greater accountability from the Catholic Church hierarchy.The church’s top leader has not been truthful, said the Rev. James Scahill of St. Michael’s Parish, violating an important tenet of the faith. His strongly worded sermon echoed sentiments he shared with parishioners several weeks ago, but this time, he spent more time and spoke with greater conviction on the controversial subject.“Any who deny the truth deny Christ, and we, as people, must reclaim our church,’’ Scahill said in a phone interview last night. “Those in authority must be willing to admit to the truth, admit their horrific crime of coverup, and beg for forgiveness, and until that happens, there will be no healing.’’Benedict has been heavily criticized recently for the way he has dealt with some abuse cases, and Scahill said that because of all the information that has been brought to light, the pope should resign.Scahill, who became pastor of the church in 2002, has long been outspoken on the need for accountability among church leaders.Parishioners generally were supportive of Scahill’s sermon, said Parish Council president Thomas LaMondia.“I thought he did a great job of conveying how he feels and how the church feels about the whole issue,’’ he said yesterday. “I thought he did a really nice job of explaining that it’s really about the protection of children. . . . The church really needs to look at what they need to do to hold people accountable.’’Controversy within the church over priests’ and bishops’ roles in the abuse scandal has been going on for more than eight years since the scandal broke in Boston but recently it has escalated, with new allegations about the actions of the current pope when he was an archbishop.“If we cannot get a pope that’s going to give us the truth, then our church is dead,’’ Scahill said.Mark Dupont, a spokesman for the Diocese of Springfield, was quick to distance the diocesan leadership from the comments made by Scahill.“It in no way represents the position of the bishop,’’ Dupont said. “We find his statements to be unfortunate.’’Scahill, he said, has not properly recognized measures to ensure safety undertaken by the American Catholic leadership, which has “led the world in their efforts,’’ as well as steps the Diocese of Springfield took over the years to deal with the issue of sexual abuse.http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachus...f_clergy_abuse/

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Dawkins wants the Pope arrested if he comes to England.So this is actually interesting to me. On one hand, hell yeah the guy should be arrested if he was involved in covering up child molestations and keeping priests active when they were obviously dangerous to any children around them. On the other hand, Dawkins is using an awful thing to further his own personal vendetta against organized religion. But does the underlying motivation make him wrong?I'm not sure if I love it or hate it.
Hey, their side teed it up, he just swung.
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I don't think we need a thread on why the Catholic church is awful. Next up for a new topic: Muslim terrorists don't like Jews or Christians!
This could be one of Brv's overly-subtle jokes. If not, it bears repeating that Christians can claim to have 2 billion followers or be the world's largest faith only if they count Catholics. Take out the Catholics, and all Protestants put together drop down to a smaller number of followers worldwide than Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism, and even atheism. In fact, Protestantism drops down into the realm of indigenous/animist faiths.Catholicism is Christianity for the overwhelming majority of believers, so what happens in the Catholic Church is what happens to Christianity.
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This could be one of Brv's overly-subtle jokes. If not, it bears repeating that Christians can claim to have 2 billion followers or be the world's largest faith only if they count Catholics. Take out the Catholics, and all Protestants put together drop down to a smaller number of followers worldwide than Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism, and even atheism. In fact, Protestantism drops down into the realm of indigenous/animist faiths.Catholicism is Christianity for the overwhelming majority of believers, so what happens in the Catholic Church is what happens to Christianity.
This is true, as long as we are interested in competing with other religions based on how many followers we have.This is silly, if we judge ourselves from ANY other criteria
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This is true, as long as we are interested in competing with other religions based on how many followers we have.
Which Protestants sometimes are, saying, well, two billion of us can't be wrong (using the highest number possible), and look how few atheists there are compared to how many believers, etc.
This is silly, if we judge ourselves from ANY other criteria
This doesn't address the point at all. Protestants try very hard to ignore the fact that by a factor of more than 3:1 the dominant doctrine of Christianity worldwide is that of Catholicism. They try even harder to pretend that some kind of Protestant belief system has existed since the time of Jesus, when for 1500 of the last 2000 years the only Christians there were were Catholics. And they try hardest of all to ignore the fact that without the Catholic Church, the bible wouldn't exist, Christianity as we know it wouldn't exist, and history would most likely have forgotten completely about a small movement of Jewish messianists in a corner of the Roman empire.The Catholic church is not the enemy of Protestantism, it is the parent (and Protestants are behaving toward it like adolescents, who can only prove themselves right if they can prove the parent wrong). If there is a crisis of faith that destroys the Catholic Church (or even just damages it severely), there goes worldwide Christianity with it. That seems like something Protestants should care about, but instead they're cheering it on.
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Which Protestants sometimes are, saying, well, two billion of us can't be wrong (using the highest number possible), and look how few atheists there are compared to how many believers, etc.
I've heard more Christians say they are right because we can beat other religions in basketball than because we have more followers...But maybe you run in different circles than me.
This doesn't address the point at all. Protestants try very hard to ignore the fact that by a factor of more than 3:1 the dominant doctrine of Christianity worldwide is that of Catholicism. They try even harder to pretend that some kind of Protestant belief system has existed since the time of Jesus, when for 1500 of the last 2000 years the only Christians there were were Catholics. And they try hardest of all to ignore the fact that without the Catholic Church, the bible wouldn't exist, Christianity as we know it wouldn't exist, and history would most likely have forgotten completely about a small movement of Jewish messianists in a corner of the Roman empire.The Catholic church is not the enemy of Protestantism, it is the parent (and Protestants are behaving toward it like adolescents, who can only prove themselves right if they can prove the parent wrong). If there is a crisis of faith that destroys the Catholic Church (or even just damages it severely), there goes worldwide Christianity with it. That seems like something Protestants should care about, but instead they're cheering it on.
I thought you read some books on history and the religion of Christianity...I guess you must not have because you have almost no clue what you are talking about.Like most women.The Byzantine church was WAY more responsible for the Bible than the catholic church. Their allowance of the corruption of the original Bible being translated into a poorly translated Latin version almost lost us the true words of the Bible, luckily the greek texts were preserved in the eastern orthodox.The catholic church has it's place in Christian history, but mostly as the guys who almost ruined the faith, not the ones who saved it.
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I've heard more Christians say they are right because we can beat other religions in basketball than because we have more followers...But maybe you run in different circles than me.
Me and a few billion other people for over 2,000 years.
I thought you read some books on history and the religion of Christianity...I guess you must not have because you have almost no clue what you are talking about.Like most women.The Byzantine church was WAY more responsible for the Bible than the catholic church. Their allowance of the corruption of the original Bible being translated into a poorly translated Latin version almost lost us the true words of the Bible, luckily the greek texts were preserved in the eastern orthodox.The catholic church has it's place in Christian history, but mostly as the guys who almost ruined the faith, not the ones who saved it.
Grumpy much today? If you have reading suggestions, I'd like to hear them, rather than insults and assertions. [Maybe I'm the one being too touchy today, if you're being your usual gently ironic self.]While I'm waiting on them, I'll agree that the Greek texts are likely to be better and that translating to Latin likely introduced errors. You admire those who translated the bible into vernacular languages like English and German, although that act introduced errors as well. All translations do, even if they used only the Greek texts (and they didn't).But even if you feel (as you seem to) that the eastern orthodox church is the truest church in terms of fidelity to the old texts, that church is hardly Protestant in any fashion at all. It's rather closer to Catholicism in its organization, hierarchy, rituals, and doctrines.And, accurate or not, it's located itself in a historical cul-de-sac. The Roman Catholic church in the west is the one that influenced world history more, and it remains the church from which Protestantism was born. And since the Greek Orthodox are not huge on proselytizing and missionary work, a crisis that destroys Catholicism will still essentially destroy the majority of the world's Christianity. I don't find it plausible that lapsed, embittered Catholics will become Eastern Orthodox. I find it even less plausible that they'll become Baptists by the billion.
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So, is anyone going to defend the pope? Anyone? No one has a problem if we shackle him and send him off to prison?SB- I was so glad you did a quick search and came up with the BG quotes so I didn't have to. I am interested to see if he'll answer or avoid this because you bring very good points. The only thing is most Christians be it, Protestant, Catholic, Babtist or whatever doesn't really have a clue as to what or where the history of their religon is, let alone what the actual beliefs are.I mean we know arresting the pope isn't going to happen and the throngs of idiots will go on believing in the voodoo but let's pretend it did and people left the church in droves and ending Christianity as we know it. Is that a good thing for society. Is it worth keeping around for the uneducated and morally bankrupt that need a fantasy to give their life meaning and guidance?

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