Wikileaks

[LongLiveYorke 38]

I don't think the main issue at hand is whether or not these particular people did something wrong or somehow violated protocol in such a way as to cause unnecessary death.The real issue, in my mind, is to come to grips with the fact that our troops are at war within Iraq, and these are the types of things that are very commonplace in war. The real issues is that anyone who supports going to war must believe that these sort of events are justified by the overall goal of the war, whatever that may be. People who supported this war, or who support war in general, should certainly be exposed to the very typical events that take place during combat or, in this case, in some proximity to combat.Civilians get killed. That's what happens.Americans have seen almost none of what actually takes place during this war. We've been blinded and the war has been whitewashed for 8 years. I think if more people had a better understanding of war in general, not just knowledge of what is is, but to have it presented in a way that they can make an emotional connection to, then people would be less likely to see war, especially preemptive war to some esoteric threat, as as viable option.

[LongLiveYorke 38]

Also, my family, friends and neighbors wouldn't be stupid enough to live in a war-zone so that's irrelevant.

Yeah, those assholes who chose to stay in their homeland deserved to die.

[Jeepster80125 0]

Do you even understand what rules of engagement means! You can't just go and blow away every single person you suspect might be a hostile target. And no, they weren't "embedded" with anti-U.S. troops. They were reporters covering the news.What do you suppose I am trying to say that isn't related to the video? Out with your conspiracy theory.Same question to you. Do the things you saw in the video make you, and the country for that matter, more safe or less safe?

LLY did a better job than I probably could.I don't think you really have the right to question any of this. What you are seeing and reacting to, is one video which you are analyzing in a vacuum. You haven't stated that you've read any dissenting opinions on wikileaks stance. Their stance is pretty troubling considering some of the evidence that they ignore, such as men carrying RPGs and rifles. I don't understand why you think this is so horrible. This video shows apache gunship pilots engaging what they thought were enemy combatants. At no time were the pilots or any other military agency notified that these people might be reporters. There were troops very closeby who were being engaged by small arms fire. Obviously the video shows people with weapons. Are you saying the pilots had no right to engage those targets? I think anyone would agree that this video shows a tragedy, but I don't think it's right of you to use this as ammo for your anti-US rhetoric.Regarding your question, I feel very safe when I see footage of stuff like this. Things like this happen in the fog of war, especially when the enemy insists on using women and children as shields, suicide bombers, etc. It's not like the enemy is fighting fair. I would expect this type of stuff to happen if there was a war going on in my backyard.I guess I don't see how this video is so damning against the military. It's not like they were kids or waiving a white flag or in a car that said PRESS and they were engaged.

[Kenny Banya 0]

LLY did a better job than I probably could.I don't think you really have the right to question any of this. What you are seeing and reacting to, is one video which you are analyzing in a vacuum. You haven't stated that you've read any dissenting opinions on wikileaks stance. Their stance is pretty troubling considering some of the evidence that they ignore, such as men carrying RPGs and rifles. I don't understand why you think this is so horrible. This video shows apache gunship pilots engaging what they thought were enemy combatants. At no time were the pilots or any other military agency notified that these people might be reporters. There were troops very closeby who were being engaged by small arms fire. Obviously the video shows people with weapons. Are you saying the pilots had no right to engage those targets? I think anyone would agree that this video shows a tragedy, but I don't think it's right of you to use this as ammo for your anti-US rhetoric.Regarding your question, I feel very safe when I see footage of stuff like this. Things like this happen in the fog of war, especially when the enemy insists on using women and children as shields, suicide bombers, etc. It's not like the enemy is fighting fair. I would expect this type of stuff to happen if there was a war going on in my backyard.I guess I don't see how this video is so damning against the military. It's not like they were kids or waiving a white flag or in a car that said PRESS and they were engaged.

Oh so now I'm anti-US huh? I'm a terrorist to you now probably huh? Why? Because I don't bow down to the wise political and military overlords? Because I have a brain of my own and don't accept everything that is spoon fed to me. Wow, to even suggest that what I am saying is "anti-US rhetoric" shows how immature you are. Jesus bro, I hold the opinion that murdering innocent people and shooting at a car full of kids, whether with knowledge or not, is wrong, and that makes my entire constitution "anti-US". Pathetic man, real pathetic.Really? Are you that ignorant to think that videos like this makes us safer when it will be replayed as a recruiting tool for all of the crazy nuts over there? Right or wrong, no matter what the soldiers do, it causes "blowback" and we never get thanked for it. And you CANNOT use hiding behind women and children as a point for you man. Check out these links...Haditha Massacre: Was it an Isolated Event and Did the Military Try to Cover it Up?http://www.democracynow.org/2006/5/30/hadi..._it_an_isolated"An internal military investigation has found that U.S. marines killed as many as 24 Iraqis–including women and children–in the city of Haditha last November and then tried to cover it up."

U.S. Strike Reportedly Kills 40 at Afghanistan Weddinghttp://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,447205,00.html"Villagers in the south said U.S. troops bombed a wedding party and killed 40 people, mostly children, and wounded 28 others, The New York Times reported."Opening salvo: the Dora Farms strikehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_invasion...ra_Farms_strike"One missed the compound entirely and the other three missed their target landing on the other side of the wall of the palace compound. Saddam Hussein was not present nor were any members of the Iraqi leadership or Hussein family. The attack killed one civilian and injured fourteen others, including nine women and one child. Later investigation revealed that Saddam Hussein had not visited the farm since 1995."The Other War: Iraq Vets Bear Witnesshttp://www.thenation.com/doc/20070730/hedges/single"Their stories, recorded and typed into thousands of pages of transcripts, reveal disturbing patterns of behavior by American troops in Iraq. Dozens of those interviewed witnessed Iraqi civilians, including children, dying from American firepower. Some participated in such killings; others treated or investigated civilian casualties after the fact. Many also heard such stories, in detail, from members of their unit. The soldiers, sailors and marines emphasized that not all troops took part in indiscriminate killings. Many said that these acts were perpetrated by a minority. But they nevertheless described such acts as common and said they often go unreported--and almost always go unpunished."Errant U.S. Rocket Strike Kills Civilians in Afghanistanhttp://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/15/world/asia/15afghan.html"An errant American rocket strike on Sunday hit a compound crowded with Afghan civilians in the last Taliban stronghold in Helmand Province, killing at least 10 people, including 5 children, military officials said."US special forces 'tried to cover-up' botched Khataba raid in Afghanistanhttp://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/worl...icle7087637.ece"US special forces soldiers dug bullets out of their victims’ bodies in the bloody aftermath of a botched night raid, then washed the wounds with alcohol before lying to their superiors about what happened, Afghan investigators have told The Times. Two pregnant women, a teenage girl, a police officer and his brother were shot on February 12 when US and Afghan special forces stormed their home in Khataba village, outside Gardez in eastern Afghanistan. The precise composition of the force has never been made public."You'll probably respond saying I'm just spewing "anti-US rhetoric"...

[vbnautilus 48]

I don't think you really have the right to question any of this.

Everyone has a right to question it, and that's why we should have access to videos like this. We are paying for it, and it is being done in our name. I'd go so far as to say that we have a responsibility to question it.

I don't understand why you think this is so horrible. This video shows apache gunship pilots engaging what they thought were enemy combatants. At no time were the pilots or any other military agency notified that these people might be reporters. There were troops very closeby who were being engaged by small arms fire. Obviously the video shows people with weapons.

I thought it was pretty horrible. The whole atmosphere was horrible. The attitude of the guys in the plane was totally cavalier towards the lives of the people on the ground and they took virtually no precaution to check what kind of people they were. Yes, this happens in war. That does not make it any less horrible. The fact that war is a situation which creates this kind of attitude towards the lives of others is not a justification for what is going on. We are responsible for creating a situation where our countrymen act this way, that is why it is so horrible. The Iraqis didn't thrust us into this against our wills.

Are you saying the pilots had no right to engage those targets? I think anyone would agree that this video shows a tragedy, but I don't think it's right of you to use this as ammo for your anti-US rhetoric.

What do you mean by 'right'? We forcibly came to this country with our military. This isn't about rights. We are exercising our power over other people's lives. It's pretty horrible.

Regarding your question, I feel very safe when I see footage of stuff like this. Things like this happen in the fog of war, especially when the enemy insists on using women and children as shields, suicide bombers, etc. It's not like the enemy is fighting fair. I would expect this type of stuff to happen if there was a war going on in my backyard.

Expecting it to happen and thinking it is OK to happen are two different things. I bet if this were happening in your backyard you'd be pretty upset about it. This whole situation with our guys flying around over Iraq apparently killing whomever they want to without too much regard for who they even are is not justified by some moral position we are in, or by some holy mission we are on. No one is even clear on why we were fighting in Iraq, so it seems to me quite a stretch to use the cover of war to justify stuff like this when that cover itself is so questionable. We should definitely have access to videos like this, and wikileaks should provide them objectively and without commentary for us to digest on our own.

[LongLiveYorke 38]

Yes, this happens in war. That does not make it any less horrible.

Yes, this is what war is. I would argue that, in the relative scheme of history, the US recently has fought some of the more compassionate wars ever. Yet, even with all our technology and all our compassion, these things happen. It's inevitable. It has happened in every war every, and seemly will continue to happen for the foreseeable future.To reiterate my points, it's a contradiction to say, "I support this war, but I don't support what happened in this video." That IS war. When you sign the paper to send troops to war, you are signing the paper saying that these things will almost inevitably happen. Hopefully you understand that and believe that this risk is worth the potential reward.

[Jeepster80125 0]

I should have posted that he didn't have a right to question the video, out of context, in a vacuum. Obviously everyone has their own opinions, he just sounds like a jackass.

[Balloon guy 158]

Fact is this entire situation is a problem laid at the feet of the politicians who failed to avoid the war.Once the war starts, I leave it all to the military, because I have full faith in their ability to get the job done with the fewest unnecessary causalities possible.In other words, they will kill and destroy as humanely as possible.To pretend that war is equal to a police action is silly.Anyone who wants to have our wars happen with nobody innocent dying, is a fool who will send all his money to help save a tree.Either accepts that war sucks and people die, or don't have war, there is no middle ground.AND I am cool with the military 'covering' this up. There is no value in making this into a bigger deal than it is. Journalist wanted to make a name for themselves and crossed a line, they gambled and lost. Those soldiers did their job, the job they were ordered to do by the politicians who failed to avoid the war.And notice that there were not a ton of people walking around those buildings, even though obviously there were a lot of people who lived there. I guess the smart ones figured out that walking around during a war was -EV.Those are the people we want to be left to rebuild their country, not the idiots who point things at helicopters while gunfire is going off a couple blocks away.Think of it as an homage to Darwin...

[Jeepster80125 0]

Everyone has a right to question it, and that's why we should have access to videos like this. We are paying for it, and it is being done in our name. I'd go so far as to say that we have a responsibility to question it. I agree with this statement. I am all for holding people accountable.I thought it was pretty horrible. The whole atmosphere was horrible. The attitude of the guys in the plane was totally cavalier towards the lives of the people on the ground and they took virtually no precaution to check what kind of people they were. Yes, this happens in war. That does not make it any less horrible. The fact that war is a situation which creates this kind of attitude towards the lives of others is not a justification for what is going on. We are responsible for creating a situation where our countrymen act this way, that is why it is so horrible. The Iraqis didn't thrust us into this against our wills. I agree that war is a pretty horrible thing. I am not going to question the perceived attitude of the pilots and gunners. They are risking their lives doing their job. In my personal opinion, we shouldn't really be questioning the pilots. They might have pulled the trigger, but there were many many more people higher up the chain of command that should be held responsible or questioned about this, not the pilots. I guess I feel that KB is attacking the pilots/gunners, who are just grunts that are taking orders. They just do what they're told. It's another argument whether soldiers should question their officers in command. I agree that we as a country are responsible, but I want to point out that our mistrust should lie with the officers and those in command, not the ones on the ground risking their lives for us. They don't choose to put themselves in that situation, they're told to do a job and they do it. I'm not going to question their attitudes while on the job. What do you mean by 'right'? We forcibly came to this country with our military. This isn't about rights. We are exercising our power over other people's lives. It's pretty horrible. Again, I felt like KB was attacking the pilots like they were actively engaging civilian targets. I don't think it's right to comment on that video or that one single instance. If we want to talk about why we went or the overuse of force or the lack of research or making sure that perceived threats are real, we can. I guess I feel that KB wasn't really saying that. I'm not going to argue the merits of why we went to war in Iraq, but we're there now. There's not really any positive to be had by arguing why we went to war in the first place, is it?Expecting it to happen and thinking it is OK to happen are two different things. I bet if this were happening in your backyard you'd be pretty upset about it. If I was living in iraq during the time that this video was shot, I would be pretty careful about moving around. If I were a photo journalist in iraq during this time, I would have been even more careful. I would be pretty upset about it, but I personally can't do anything except protect myself or take actions to prevent the killing of myself and my family. The people in the video don't seem to do that. Again, I hesitate to judge anything in that video because we lack context and the entire story. War is pretty awful.This whole situation with our guys flying around over Iraq apparently killing whomever they want to without too much regard for who they even are is not justified by some moral position we are in, or by some holy mission we are on. No one is even clear on why we were fighting in Iraq, so it seems to me quite a stretch to use the cover of war to justify stuff like this when that cover itself is so questionable. This seems like a stretch, even for you. Are you asserting that the pilots are the ones who are making the decision to engage the enemy? I'm not using the war to justify these actions, I'm using the war to attempt to explain what happened. I feel there is a difference.We should definitely have access to videos like this, and wikileaks should provide them objectively and without commentary for us to digest on our own.I completely agree that there should be oversight and transparency with the military. I don't agree that releasing videos like this hurts our cause. I agree that these instances should be reported discussed. But it's pretty obvious that even wiki is biased in this situation. Don't you agree?

[Kenny Banya 0]

Fact is this entire situation is a problem laid at the feet of the politicians who failed to avoid the war.Once the war starts, I leave it all to the military, because I have full faith in their ability to get the job done with the fewest unnecessary causalities possible.In other words, they will kill and destroy as humanely as possible.To pretend that war is equal to a police action is silly.Anyone who wants to have our wars happen with nobody innocent dying, is a fool who will send all his money to help save a tree.Either accepts that war sucks and people die, or don't have war, there is no middle ground.AND I am cool with the military 'covering' this up. There is no value in making this into a bigger deal than it is. Journalist wanted to make a name for themselves and crossed a line, they gambled and lost. Those soldiers did their job, the job they were ordered to do by the politicians who failed to avoid the war.And notice that there were not a ton of people walking around those buildings, even though obviously there were a lot of people who lived there. I guess the smart ones figured out that walking around during a war was -EV.Those are the people we want to be left to rebuild their country, not the idiots who point things at helicopters while gunfire is going off a couple blocks away.Think of it as an homage to Darwin...

I agree with all of this except the part where they should cover it up. BTW, they did cover it up, but it got leaked. That is also a major point. Truth always comes to the surface, which makes cover ups so dangerous in the first place.I'm going to end this here. Our points have been made and I don't think we can really take them any further. Although I do think it is completely out of line (and intellectually bankrupt) for Jeepster to resort to ad hominem attacks, insinuating that I am anti-American and a "jackass". This was the only unfortunate part of the discussion for me.

[Jeepster80125 0]

I agree with all of this except the part where they should cover it up. BTW, they did cover it up, but it got leaked. That is also a major point. Truth always comes to the surface, which makes cover ups so dangerous in the first place.I'm going to end this here. Our points have been made and I don't think we can really take them any further. Although I do think it is completely out of line (and intellectually bankrupt) for Jeepster to resort to ad hominem attacks, insinuating that I am anti-American and a "jackass". This was the only unfortunate part of the discussion for me.

I guess it seems that you are coming across as kind of an arrogant asshole. If you aren't an asshole, I apologize.

I think you should just admit that there was no initial "shock" for you. Rather, it would just be against your nature to question anything "the troops" over there do, primarily because you know you would be partially to blame. You know your tax dollars are being put to work there, you have done nothing to end the war, they are essentially "fighting for your freedom". To admit their actions were wrong would be to accept the fact that it was your fault...and doing so wouldn't let you sleep at night. Rationalize all you want...doesn't change the fact that it was wrong, and you know it.

I don't blame the troops for the war at all. But they do have a responsibility for their own actions. The sad truth is, this is what war is. Like a member from that helicopter company said recently, things like this happen all the time in Iraq. Troops do have a choice of whether or not they join the military. Last time I checked, there isn't a draft anymore.

Do you even understand what rules of engagement means! You can't just go and blow away every single person you suspect might be a hostile target. And no, they weren't "embedded" with anti-U.S. troops. They were reporters covering the news.

Really? Are you that ignorant to think that videos like this makes us safer when it will be replayed as a recruiting tool for all of the crazy nuts over there? Right or wrong, no matter what the soldiers do, it causes "blowback" and we never get thanked for it.

These seem pretty inciteful, inciteful and anti US to me. Sorry if I misread you.

[Kenny Banya 0]

I guess it seems that you are coming across as kind of an arrogant asshole. If you aren't an asshole, I apologize.These seem pretty inciteful, inciteful and anti US to me. Sorry if I misread you.

I was not trying to incite hostility, I was just being emotional on this issue. I definitely was not trying to be anti-US. I accept your apology and apologize in my own regard if I came off that way.YAY we're all friends again

[Balloon guy 158]

I agree with all of this except the part where they should cover it up. BTW, they did cover it up, but it got leaked. That is also a major point. Truth always comes to the surface, which makes cover ups so dangerous in the first place.

The reason I am for the 'cover up' is because I don't think they were 'wrong'.It was a bad circumstance and they made decisions that were valid given the amount of information they had.As such this is not a case of reckless hot shot fly boys lighting up a neighborhood, or of them lying to their control who gave them the authority to shoot. Opening this up to scrutiny to the masses is completely without value.Show this to the reigning civilian authorities in congress..sure.Show this to Code Pink...what for?I think the consensus is that the soldiers didn't kill a bunch of innocent people for fun, the circumstances made it 'reasonable' to understand why their actions were taken. It was just tragic that the results were not the intended ones, which is the killing of bad guys.At the end of the day we need these soldiers to know that they have a crappy job to do, but we will not second guess every split second decision they make years later. Want to completely destroy the effectiveness of a military, let their soldiers know that if they make even the smallest mistake, we will put them in jail.Tell them that we got their backs, within honest reason, and we can trust them to do the amazing job that they have done so far in Iraq/Afghan.

[Balloon guy 158]

I was not trying to incite hostility, I was just being emotional on this issue. I definitely was not trying to be anti-US. I accept your apology and apologize in my own regard if I came off that way.YAY we're all friends again

Whoa there buddy, you think I forgive pawning about economic things from a year ago that easy?Forget about it

[bdc30 0]

Journalist wanted to make a name for themselves and crossed a line, they gambled and lost. And notice that there were not a ton of people walking around those buildings, even though obviously there were a lot of people who lived there. I guess the smart ones figured out that walking around during a war was -EV.Those are the people we want to be left to rebuild their country, not the idiots who point things at helicopters while gunfire is going off a couple blocks away.Think of it as an homage to Darwin...

It's quite possible I love this man. <3 Those are basically my exact thoughts.

[Jeepster80125 0]

The reason I am for the 'cover up' is because I don't think they were 'wrong'.It was a bad circumstance and they made decisions that were valid given the amount of information they had.As such this is not a case of reckless hot shot fly boys lighting up a neighborhood, or of them lying to their control who gave them the authority to shoot. Opening this up to scrutiny to the masses is completely without value.Show this to the reigning civilian authorities in congress..sure.Show this to Code Pink...what for?I think the consensus is that the soldiers didn't kill a bunch of innocent people for fun, the circumstances made it 'reasonable' to understand why their actions were taken. It was just tragic that the results were not the intended ones, which is the killing of bad guys.At the end of the day we need these soldiers to know that they have a crappy job to do, but we will not second guess every split second decision they make years later. Want to completely destroy the effectiveness of a military, let their soldiers know that if they make even the smallest mistake, we will put them in jail.Tell them that we got their backs, within honest reason, and we can trust them to do the amazing job that they have done so far in Iraq/Afghan.

I agree with everything that you've said, but I think even you will agree that intentional cover-ups etc should not be tolerated. It's pretty obvious the military didn't want this video getting out. That's not right, is it? These types of videos should be encouraged to be released, if for no other reason than to help prevent abuse. I don't think this video or the acts of violence is the major issue, the issue is the deceit after the fact, especially when more and more questions were raised. Again, I don't hold the grunts on the ground responsible, there are higher-ups who have the job of explaining. If there was anything improper done, then they can answer to those charges. I would agree that this video could be hurtful if used for recruitment, but it's not like those using or seeing this video are completely unbiased and willing to look at it from 'our' perspective.

[hblask 1]

I don't think the main issue at hand is whether or not these particular people did something wrong or somehow violated protocol in such a way as to cause unnecessary death.The real issue, in my mind, is to come to grips with the fact that our troops are at war within Iraq, and these are the types of things that are very commonplace in war. The real issues is that anyone who supports going to war must believe that these sort of events are justified by the overall goal of the war, whatever that may be. People who supported this war, or who support war in general, should certainly be exposed to the very typical events that take place during combat or, in this case, in some proximity to combat.Civilians get killed. That's what happens.Americans have seen almost none of what actually takes place during this war. We've been blinded and the war has been whitewashed for 8 years. I think if more people had a better understanding of war in general, not just knowledge of what is is, but to have it presented in a way that they can make an emotional connection to, then people would be less likely to see war, especially preemptive war to some esoteric threat, as as viable option.

[vbnautilus 48]

The replying inside the quotes thing makes it really hard to quote back.

This seems like a stretch, even for you. Are you asserting that the pilots are the ones who are making the decision to engage the enemy?

The video showed the pilots in the process of this decision being made. There was some consultation with other people on the recording, but I don't know who they were. I was just saying that no one involved in the decision seemed particularly concerned about making a mistake. It's just not a good scenario, and as much as they try and cast this as a "compassionate war" etc., it is really hard to find evidence of compassion in this video. I had assumed there was some process in place whereby there would be certain precautions you'd take to avoid this kind of result, but it doesn't really seem from this video that there are, or that they are being followed with any diligence. They just blew up that entire building with people clearly milling about in front of it.

But it's pretty obvious that even wiki is biased in this situation. Don't you agree?

Yes, again, I think they should just be an information source and nothing more.

[El Guapo 8]

Yes, this is what war is. I would argue that, in the relative scheme of history, the US recently has fought some of the more compassionate wars ever.

Which is also why we have been there for 8 years.

[jmkiser 0]

Yeah, those assholes who chose to stay in their homeland deserved to die.

My comment wasn't meant to be negative towards Iraqi citizens, it was in response to Banya.Hypothetically, if the entire United States was a war zone and I was a civilian (along with my family and friends), we would do everything in our power to get to Canada. I love my country, but my family and friends come first.I do recognize that there are certainly many people who would like to leave that area, but don't have the means to do so.

[jmkiser 0]

There seems to be a lot of confusion about what the discussion actually is. Points are being made purely on what happened in the video and counter-points seem to be about the war debate.I don't think anyone with a heart would watch that video and feel all gumdrops and lollipops. War is horrible. We agree on that. So let's get back to the actual video. Were the pilots out of line?In respect to the comments about their cavalier attitudes, I do my best to put myself in their shoes. How would you psychologically fight a war as a soldier and still keep your sanity as human? I'm not claiming that this warrants these types of attitudes, but I find it difficult to blame them (and please don't twist my words, Banya, to act as if I'm cheering them on). The kind of life an American soldier lives in war can mentally break your average man. If the attitude that was displayed in that video helps those troops cope, then who am I to accuse them of being heartless? I didn't see them cheering misfortune.

[Kenny Banya 0]

I just thought I would post this AMAZING letter from soldiers involved in this incident. I really feel for the soldiers, and really everyone involved in this situation. I hope peace and reconciliation can find those involved here.‘Collateral Murder’ Veterans Apologize to Iraqi Familieshttp://www.antiwar.com/blog/2010/04/16/col...iraqi-families/

[strategy 4]

http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-r...dited-interviewInterview with one of the guys behind Wikileaks. Colbert makes some pretty solid points, keeps his idiotic interview character to a minimum. I'm glad I watched it.

[speedz99 145]

AND I am cool with the military 'covering' this up.

Yikes.

Journalist wanted to make a name for themselves and crossed a line, they gambled and lost.

Getting a story, making a name for themselves...tomato, tomato. That second "tomato" was pronounced incorrectly.

These seem pretty inciteful, inciteful and anti US to me. Sorry if I misread you.

I think that a person should be allowed to question any given military action without these kinds of labels being thrown at them.

[vbnautilus 48]

anti US

I'm seriously curious as to what you meant by this.