1-2 Live No Limit, Two Pair Facing Turn Shove

[mskeadas 2]

Sorry for the format, I copied and pasted from an email. 1 - 2 No Limit My stack = $400, no one at table has less than $80, most people between 100-200 UTG and MP 1 fold Hero raises to $5 with Kd 4d I don't really have a problem with this raise though it may be slightly -EV. My table was especially weak and I have strong reads on everyone except a new guy in the SB who just sat down. I also have a good image, having only shown down premium hands. No one had been 3-betting preflop and I figured to get 3-5 callers. I'd make this raise about 20% of the time, call around 20%, and fold around 60% MP 4, 5 and CO call, as does SB. BB folds. Flop (pot = $21 after rake) Kh 4h 3c SB bets $9 - SB middle aged Asian guy, just sat down at table, no reads on him Hero raises to $29 MP 4, 5 and CO all fold, SB calls Turn (pot = $79) Ah SB shoves for $64 I hem and haw, then ask the guy to show me one card. He refuses. I say, come on man, I'm probably gonna fold, show me one to get me to call. He thinks, then turns over the five of hearts. Now what???? I am about to muck my cards, and at the last second he says, "if you fold I'll show you both." Change anything?

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

I didn't even get past the part where we Raise UTG with K4s.I may try and read the rest, but I'm not promising anything.

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

This really feels made up. Why would anyone show a Card in this situation?You raise 20% of the time UTG with K4?This just doesn't make any sense. Yeah the "I'll show if you fold" is a classic cry for a Fold, but still without any other read why would we call this? We lose to any ace, five, or heart.The Five alone isn't exactly a show of power, so if he is trying to induce a Fold that is pretty weak.Bottom line: If we don't play K4 OOP then we don't find ourselves in these positions.Fold Preflop.

[mskeadas 2]

This really feels made up. Why would anyone show a Card in this situation?You raise 20% of the time UTG with K4?This just doesn't make any sense. Yeah the "I'll show if you fold" is a classic cry for a Fold, but still without any other read why would we call this? We lose to any ace, five, or heart.The Five alone isn't exactly a show of power, so if he is trying to induce a Fold that is pretty weak.Bottom line: If we don't play K54 OOP then we don't find ourselves in these positions.Fold Preflop.

I wasn't UTG, I was third to act after two folds. The game was INCREDIBLY weak, with literally no one 3-betting pre-flop. I got a little bored, I agree K4 suited is -EV in middle position. I don't lose to any ace or any heart, I lose to two pair with an ace, or a straight or a flush, unless you meant the other card besides the one he showed, in which case I apologize. Maybe not the most interesting hand, I apologize, just trying to get better and figure out what the usual meaning of showing a card, show you if I fold type stuff is.

[BaseJester 1]

Fold preflop, but as played . . .

I am about to muck my cards, and at the last second he says, "if you fold I'll show you both."Change anything?

The only reason to say something at the last second is to discourage you from doing the thing you're about to do. So, no, imho.

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

I wasn't UTG, I was third to act after two folds. The game was INCREDIBLY weak, with literally no one 3-betting pre-flop. I got a little bored, I agree K4 suited is -EV in middle position. I don't lose to any ace or any heart, I lose to two pair with an ace, or a straight or a flush, unless you meant the other card besides the one he showed, in which case I apologize. Maybe not the most interesting hand, I apologize, just trying to get better and figure out what the usual meaning of showing a card, show you if I fold type stuff is.

Yeah. Sorry, I had a terrible day and came across harder than I needed to. Take out the bad attitude from my response and you still have "Fold Preflop" and "there are enough ways to lose this hand that I think this is a Fold".Yes. I was talking about the final unseen Villain Hole Card.

[mskeadas 2]

Yeah. Sorry, I had a terrible day and came across harder than I needed to. Take out the bad attitude from my response and you still have "Fold Preflop" and "there are enough ways to lose this hand that I think this is a Fold".Yes. I was talking about the final unseen Villain Hole Card.

No problem, thank you for the input. For a while I was playing way too many hands in early in middle positions due to the propensity of weak players stacking off making "sheriff calls" with middle pair, top pair weak kicker, etc. Been valuing position a lot more lately with good results. (this hand was a couple months ago) What about playing suited aces in middle position, or suited kings in CO, button with 3-6 limpers ahead and little fear of blinds 3-betting?I did fold and villian showed 5-6 off for a straight draw, just trying to reinforce my decision and not be results-oriented. I was proud of not going on tilt after this!

[rrumsey 0]

fold pre fold pre fold pre fold pre fold pre. i almost dont wanna read past that, and your reasoning of it is probably -ev but whatever,...... and i mean this just seems so wierd imo, i just feel this hand is fake,...... oh just read down to pot odds yah me and you too. fold. silly hand imo. wow is this what fcp has come too?

[mskeadas 2]

fold pre fold pre fold pre fold pre fold pre. i almost dont wanna read past that, and your reasoning of it is probably -ev but whatever,...... and i mean this just seems so wierd imo, i just feel this hand is fake,...... oh just read down to pot odds yah me and you too. fold. silly hand imo. wow is this what fcp has come too?

Lol I love two people commenting that the hand seems fake, you gotta love the Hustler Casino in Los Angeles! I will try to post more interesting hands, honestly just trying to get better, point of this post was how to interpret table talk

[trystero 0]

meh fold

[BaseJester 1]

fold pre fold pre fold pre fold pre fold pre. i almost dont wanna read past that, and your reasoning of it is probably -ev but whatever,...... and i mean this just seems so wierd imo, i just feel this hand is fake,...... oh just read down to pot odds yah me and you too. fold. silly hand imo. wow is this what fcp has come too?

*shrug* Why does it matter if it's fake?

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

What about playing suited aces in middle position, or suited kings in CO, button with 3-6 limpers ahead and little fear of blinds 3-betting?

The problem with playing hands like suited aces or kings in ANY position (but especially MP and EP) is we basically have to hit Yahtzee for these hands to pay off. If you're playing two suited cards, you are worse than an 8:1 dog to see a flop that gives you 4 parts of a Flush (Flush Draw) and 118:1 to actually Flop the Flush. Starting out with two suited cards you are worse than a 16:1 dog to see a flush by the end of the hand. You just can't get the implied odds to play these cards with any regularity. So many other Flops are just trouble-makers - what happens when we hit Top Pair no kicker? Playing weak suited aces and kings is a leak. Plug it.Learn to feel really good about sliding that A6 Suited into the muck.

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

fold pre fold pre fold pre fold pre fold pre. i almost dont wanna read past that, and your reasoning of it is probably -ev but whatever,...... and i mean this just seems so wierd imo, i just feel this hand is fake,...... oh just read down to pot odds yah me and you too. fold. silly hand imo. wow is this what fcp has come too?

Ha.Sounds like you and I were on the same page on this one!

[SwolyswoND 1]

Has anyone else said fold pre?As played though, you need to raise LOTSSSS more on the flop. Like to 45-50.

[Provotrout 0]

Sorry for the format, I copied and pasted from an email. I hem and haw, then ask the guy to show me one card. He refuses. I say, come on man, I'm probably gonna fold, show me one to get me to call. He thinks, then turns over the five of hearts. Now what???? I am about to muck my cards, and at the last second he says, "if you fold I'll show you both." Change anything?

I'd fold. There are 12 cards he could have (2 or any Heart) that have you beat, so that's 27%. Factor in his flop call and he's unlikely to be bluffing with 45, K5, or semi-bluffing with A5. The pot odds are 45%, but after discounting his call on the flop I'd say you need better PO to call (like 5:1). That way the only way you lose more money is if the guy not only has a made hand, but he's also smart enough to make a small value bet on the river. If he does both, kudos to him.

[trystero 0]

I'd fold. There are 12 cards he could have (2 or any Heart) that have you beat, so that's 27%.

? He needs a combination of two cards to have a flush.

[mtdesmoines 3]

Why does he want you to fold if he has a flush?Why are you folding two pair on the turn to less than a PSB to bad players?Just take his money please.

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

? He needs a combination of two cards to have a flush.

We've already seen the 5 with three hearts on the Board he has another Hole Card and River to come.

[trystero 0]

oh lol right, this is one of those weird hands

[rrumsey 0]

Ha.Sounds like you and I were on the same page on this one!

i seriously didnt even read your post till i was half done

[fakepoo 0]

I really love places that let you show a card like that. It creates some really fun spots. Does anyone know what places in Vegas let you do this? Usually, I would play at MGM but they don't let you do things like that.

[SwolyswoND 1]

Why does he want you to fold if he has a flush?Why are you folding two pair on the turn to less than a PSB to bad players?Just take his money please.

1) Um, he doesn't want Hero to fold, he can easily have a baby flush and wants to make Hero pay now in case he holds a one-card higher FD. He could also have a set and be thinking the same thing (obv this is before he shows the ) or a straight. 2) Because there's almost nothing our crappy two pair can even beat at this point?3) I'm sure we can, take his money, but not in this hand. I really don't understand a lot of your advice lately.

[mtdesmoines 3]

1) Um, he doesn't want Hero to fold, he can easily have a baby flush and wants to make Hero pay now in case he holds a one-card higher FD. He could also have a set and be thinking the same thing (obv this is before he shows the ) or a straight. 2) Because there's almost nothing our crappy two pair can even beat at this point?3) I'm sure we can, take his money, but not in this hand. I really don't understand a lot of your advice lately.

So we're to assume he drew to the flush and now wants us to fold so he doesn't get paid? Or are we to assume he played 25o into a raise?He doesn't have a two pair hand -- at best one pair of aces with a 5h redraw. He doesn't have a set (we know that now). I just don't understand the thinking that goes he wants us to fold when he holds a made hand.He wants us to fold because we tanked and that means we can prob beat him.

[Ninja Ace 1]

FWIW I was going to post virtually the same thing MT did but OP posted results b4 I got a chance.Yes, when a villain donks into you before the river (river is different bc some donkbets are bets afraid of a checkback) on a scare card... it's a meekish holding a vast majority of the time.Oddly enough though from how the villain is talking it reads very strong... either he hugely overvalues hands or gives off reverse tells

[shynepo3 0]

I don't mind the raise, but I'd rather fold preflop. You rather raise with suited connectors, or Ace suited hands instead.I like your flop raise. Based on the turn, after he shows you the 5h, you have to call. He has to have a flush or 2-5 to beat you; everything else you have him beat. I call...so what happened?