Another Not Sure What I Should Have Done....

[KosinTrouble 0]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comUTG+1 ($0.98)MP1 ($0.93)Hero (MP2) ($3.03)CO ($3.43)Button ($7.15)SB ($1.98)BB ($1.12)UTG ($3.03)Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A, Q3 folds, Hero bets $0.08, CO calls $0.08, 3 foldsFlop: ($0.19) 8, J, 10(2 players)Hero checks, CO checksTurn: ($0.19) Q(2 players)Hero checks, CO checksRiver: ($0.19) 6(2 players)Hero checks, CO bets $0.10, Hero foldsTotal pot: $0.19 | Rake: $0

[SwolyswoND 1]

Good job not c-betting this flop. I probably b/f the turn to get value from his naked one card draws (which there are plenty of), but it's close. Easy c/f on the river as played.

[mtdesmoines 3]

C bet flop. Bet turn. As played, fold river OBV.

[KingJames 11]

I play it the same

[SwolyswoND 1]

C bet flop.

Why, exactly?

[trystero 0]

I probably don't c/bet but I can't blame someone for doing it...we do have a double bellybuster gutterball whatewvkfvc it's called

[Ninja Ace 1]

Good job not c-betting this flop.

I disagree so hard with this... why the eff would we not c-bet when we flop a double gutter with 2 overs? I know a lot of players don't like c-betting mid-drawy boards bc it connects with flat ranges very hard, but it's not like we're c-betting total air here.Bet flop for 3/4th potif called you'll be firing another barrel on this turnif called you're check/folding the river

[rrumsey 0]

Good job not c-betting this flop. I probably b/f the turn to get value from his naked one card draws (which there are plenty of), but it's close. Easy c/f on the river as played.

I probably don't c/bet but I can't blame someone for doing it...we do have a double bellybuster gutterball whatewvkfvc it's called

i agree with swolys here, J kinda hands and 10 kinda hands is smack in the middle if not most of his range a lot here, and if we cbet, get called, we then face the problem of turning our made hand into a bluff when we see this card. A cbet will make the turn hard if called, and even if we see a none heart Q, QJ is in his range a lot also. This is the prefect kinda board for a coldcaller, so dont kneee jerk cbet.for the record, it could work, but it doesnt work as high a % of the time as you think here imo, plus we preserve value for when we do hit a decent turn bc we didnt push the hands we would wanna get value from

[Ninja Ace 1]

for the record, it could work, but it doesnt work as high a % of the time as you think here imo

I don't think it works very high at all... probably something like 30-35%... which is why we c-bet a draw with at least 6 outs to the nuts (ok the low end isn't to the nuts but if KQ follows along to our c-bet we're getting value from it anyhow) instead of a low pocket pair or AK here. You'd c-bet an Ax flush draw here right? So why not the Ax double gutter?

[SwolyswoND 1]

We have a double gutter, but we'd have to get it AI on the flop to realize any implied odds from the draw. 1) Our outs might not even be clean, and even if they are, the 9h or Kh can easily scare off villains from paying us off, plus we can't push the hand too hard when we hit those cards2) We're very unlikely to get paid if we hit the 9, and the range that will pay us on a K is pretty small. I don't cbet this flop because we get raised a TON. We also get floated a ton and have to c/f on blank turns.

[mtdesmoines 3]

Why, exactly?

A double gutter with two overs. OMG what more do you want from a non-pair flop?

[Ninja Ace 1]

We have a double gutter, but we'd have to get it AI on the flop to realize any implied odds from the draw.

Ummm what?

1) Our outs might not even be clean, and even if they are, the 9h or Kh can easily scare off villains from paying us off

Those are the only two hearts in the deck?

plus we can't push the hand too hard when we hit those cards

No, you can't play back at raises when you hit those cards

2) We're very unlikely to get paid if we hit the 9, and the range that will pay us on a K is pretty small.

Not true at all. Even though the board has a 4 straight a lot of villains don't put a ton of faith in you having the gutter... they are much more scared of the Q. You seem to have an illusion that the only time we get paid is when we gain a whole stack

I don't cbet this flop because we get raised a TON. We also get floated a ton and have to c/f on blank turns.

There are a ton of good barrel cards so c/f isn't always the line. And no, you don't get raised a TON, though you will get raised more frequently... and depending on the villain, a raise can be the best move he can make for you... esp if you have one of those villains who only raises non-monsters in which case it's the ole 3ball shove and you're playing high card very often when called

[SwolyswoND 1]

@mtdesmoines: read my whole post. I explained my thinking. Also, the way you express it, c/r would be a better flop line, because there is very little we get value from on the flop. @Ninja ace/TN: The first sentence was poorly worded. I was trying to express that I don't think we have any IO in this hand because we won't get lots of value when we hit our draws. I'm not sure why you're asking how many hearts are in the deck. I'm saying that most likely we are behind on the flop. If we hit the A/Q later on, it can still be tricky because those can make strong hands for the villain's range. I was referring to the 8 outs of our double belly buster - just saying that 2 of them are dirty, either because it makes villain's flush, or that it makes it harder for us to get max value since they will be scared of the hearts.I still disagree with you that we can get good action on a K. Basically the only hands we will get value from are KQ or a stubborn AJ. Our hand looks so much like AQ+ 99+ to the villain, that he will have a hard time calling off bets with anything less. They may not think we have AQ, but they will LOVE to put us on AK for TPTK, and won't pay off less.

[Ninja Ace 1]

I'm not sure why you're asking how many hearts are in the deck. I'm saying that most likely we are behind on the flop. If we hit the A/Q later on, it can still be tricky because those can make strong hands for the villain's range. I was referring to the 8 outs of our double belly buster - just saying that 2 of them are dirty, either because it makes villain's flush, or that it makes it harder for us to get max value since they will be scared of the hearts.I still disagree with you that we can get good action on a K. Basically the only hands we will get value from are KQ or a stubborn AJ. Our hand looks so much like AQ+ 99+ to the villain, that he will have a hard time calling off bets with anything less. They may not think we have AQ, but they will LOVE to put us on AK for TPTK, and won't pay off less.

I'm asking how many hearts are in the deck because nearly any turn heart is a great card for us to fire another shell on. Yes, it makes strong hands for the villain SOMETIMES, but it makes our perceived hand strength monstrous ALL THE TIMEAnd I'm fully aware 2 of the outs are dirty which is why the first time I posted I posted 6 outs to the virtual nuts.It's all style preference really... tbh if you're going to fire one shell then give up... c-betting is terrible... but this is a fantastic board for me to fire on on many possible turn cards.

[mtdesmoines 3]

I'm asking how many hearts are in the deck because nearly any turn heart is a great card for us to fire another shell on. Yes, it makes strong hands for the villain SOMETIMES, but it makes our perceived hand strength monstrous ALL THE TIMEAnd I'm fully aware 2 of the outs are dirty which is why the first time I posted I posted 6 outs to the virtual nuts.It's all style preference really... tbh if you're going to fire one shell then give up... c-betting is terrible... but this is a fantastic board for me to fire on on many possible turn cards.

Yes -- not only is this flop a good board to fire, but a flushed turn is better -- but it's also a good hand to get value from one pair and probably two pair hands if we do hit our gutterballs.I mean, if you think firing is burning money because villain is unfoldable, then hitting and firing all the way through is printing money amirite?

[rrumsey 0]

Yes -- not only is this flop a good board to fire, but a flushed turn is better -- but it's also a good hand to get value from one pair and probably two pair hands if we do hit our gutterballs.I mean, if you think firing is burning money because villain is unfoldable, then hitting and firing all the way through is printing money amirite?

why turn a hand that has show down value into a bluff? dont forget, this is 2nl!

[mtdesmoines 3]

why turn a hand that has show down value into a bluff? dont forget, this is 2nl!

We're only semi-bluffing. And if you believe it has showdown value, then why not accumulate value along the way?

[KosinTrouble 0]

I have to admit I missed the double belly gut buster draw... If I would have noticed that, I probably would have done a cbet.Now that being said, I had about 4 hands go to showdown with him and twice he bet and had made a hand, twice he checked and didnt make his hand. So based on that as well, I folded the river. But the more I think, I think I could have taken the pot down with a cbet with that flop. I just made a fish mistake and didnt notice the double belly... Was just thinking of the two days of losing sessions, which should have been a sign to stop till I had my head on straight.Thanks for the comments, I will post more hands today.Kos

[SwolyswoND 1]

I have to admit I missed the double belly gut buster draw... If I would have noticed that, I probably would have done a cbet.Now that being said, I had about 4 hands go to showdown with him and twice he bet and had made a hand, twice he checked and didnt make his hand. So based on that as well, I folded the river. But the more I think, I think I could have taken the pot down with a cbet with that flop. I just made a fish mistake and didnt notice the double belly... Was just thinking of the two days of losing sessions, which should have been a sign to stop till I had my head on straight.Thanks for the comments, I will post more hands today.Kos

Literally the only part of villain's range that he folds on this flop is 77-. If you choose to cbet the flop, which I obviously disagree with as per my responses, don't do so with the expectation of taking the pot down there. If you bet you are committing to firing multiple barrels. I'm not as aggro as Ninja/TP, so that doesn't fit my style, but it's fine with his. But there is certainly enough debate on either side that it's not automatic.I know they don't come here often, but I'd be very interested to hear thoughts from AK/Cobalt/other old school FCP crowd on the flop decision.