Deepstack Live Tournament Hand

[Agent 008 0]

I was playing a 2-day deepstack tournament the other day, and here is the hand I had at the very end of day 1.Blinds were 250/500 no ante, and I just got transferred to this new table with around 10'000 chips. 1 guy went out after a few hands, and we were left 6 handed.I get delt KK in mid position, and am the first to enter the pot by raising to 1250. The only callers are small and big blinds. Both of them have around 20'000.3750 in the pot, I'm left with 8750.Flop comes 6h 6d 2c.Checks around to me, I check - with pocket Kings, I know that the risk of giving them free cards is minimal, and the big blind could easily have a 6.Turn comes a 4h. Small blind checks, Big blind bets 2000.Now, I am thinking to myself. I should probably raise here to 5000 for information, and if he calls and leads the river, I should probably fold. But I can't do that with the size of my stack, as I'd get myself committed.Shoving all in? Bad idea, he could easily have a 6, and my stack is not that small yet to risk it like that.So I decide to just call after taking a lot of time to think, hoping he would give up on the betting on the river. Small blind folds.River comes a 2d.7750 in the pot, I have around 6750 left. Big blind puts me all in.Now, I am thinking to myself. If he had a 2 in his hand, checking the flop would be pretty stupid. Chances are neither me, nor small blind have a 6 or a 2, and any free card would be dangerous if you hold a 2! Checking the flop and betting the turn when a 4 drops wouldn't make too much sense if you hold a 2.If he had a 6, giving him the nuts? Why would he put me all in? I still have 7k chips, I am not pot committed, and what hand could I possibly have (from his perspective) to call him with? Therefore, I was pretty confident he didn't have a 6. It looked more like he sensed weakness with my hesitation on the turn, and was trying to push me off.Having though all that, I decided I was probably ahead, and called.Was it good play or bad play by me there? What do you think?

[trystero 0]

you have kings, virtually no stack, and the board isn't all that dangerousraise to 1500 pf, bet the flop and try and get money into the pot. I mean you checked the flop presumably to trap, right, to look weak? you got the action you wanted, now call.he probably doesn't have a 2 simply because it's an unlikely card to call with pf, as really the only combinations that involve a 2 are like A2s/A2o(for donks) and maybe 23s. Not really because he'd be afraid of giving free cards so therefore he'd have to bet the flop...while it's possible that villain has 6x, it's also possible that he has a worse overpair (77/88/99etc) and that he had picked up a flush draw on the turn

[Agent 008 0]

you have kings, virtually no stack, and the board isn't all that dangerousraise to 1500 pf, bet the flop and try and get money into the pot. I mean you checked the flop presumably to trap, right, to look weak? you got the action you wanted, now call.he probably doesn't have a 2 simply because it's an unlikely card to call with pf, as really the only combinations that involve a 2 are like A2s/A2o(for donks) and maybe 23s. Not really because he'd be afraid of giving free cards so therefore he'd have to bet the flop...while it's possible that villain has 6x, it's also possible that he has a worse overpair (77/88/99etc) and that he had picked up a flush draw on the turn

No, I checked the flop because I knew that if I was good on the flop with KK, I was most likely good on the river. The risk of giving away free cards is minimal. As far as I am concerned, there is no reason to make the pot bigger as this is a marginal situation and I'd rather play a small pot. BB could easily have a 6 in his hand. If he does have a 6, however, it is very likely that he would only bet on the river (hoping that I would bluff on the turn), as it is unlikely that I have any of that flop.Had the flop not been a "hit or miss" one, I'd most definitely play the flop aggressively.

[Shark527 0]

Now, I am thinking to myself. I should probably raise here to 5000 for information, and if he calls and leads the river, I should probably fold. But I can't do that with the size of my stack, as I'd get myself committed.

Raising to 5000 with only 3750 behind for "information" is a horrible play, especially with 250/500 blinds.You are looking to get your entire stack in this hand. I'd happily raise all in on the turn.If your stack was a lot deeper, I'd probably play it a little more like you did. With only about 20 BB's though, I'm looking to get my stack in the middle at some point in this hand.

[trystero 0]

This is not a marginal situation. The board is 662r and you have KK. Your opponents have a ton of hands that you beat and very few that you're behind. You shouldn't look at this flop and think, "BB could easily have a 6, I better keep the pot small." You should think, "How do my kings stack up against the pf calling range of two tournament donks?" The answer is, "Very well, so let's try and get the money into the pot." Do you think they fold pocket pairs that you beat? No, they don't. What do you think happens against 99? You win a stack. They probably don't even fold Ax if you make the bet small enough on the flop. If I'm in a tournament about to go to day two, and I have just 10k chips with blinds at 250/500, I want to either double up or bust. Now suppose you folded this river. Then you'd have 7000 chips and you'd have to drag yourself back to the tournament on the next day with blinds at like 600/1200 or whatever they'd be. F that.

[Agent 008 0]

Raising to 5000 with only 3750 behind for "information" is a horrible play, especially with 250/500 blinds.You are looking to get your entire stack in this hand.If your stack was a lot deeper, I'd probably play it a little more like you did. With only about 20 BB's though, I'm looking to get my stack in the middle at some point in this hand.

Exactly. It's just a thought that crossed my mind naturally, having played really deepstacked for hours just prior to that hand. That's why I didn't raise, and I did end up putting all my chips in, but when I was pretty confident I was ahead. It looked like a bluff on the river, so had I shoved on the turn I would've taken my opponent's play away from him if he had nothing.

This is not a marginal situation. The board is 662r and you have KK. Your opponents have a ton of hands that you beat and very few that you're behind. You shouldn't look at this flop and think, "BB could easily have a 6, I better keep the pot small." You should think, "How do my kings stack up against the pf calling range of two tournament donks?" The answer is, "Very well, so let's try and get the money into the pot." Do you think they fold pocket pairs that you beat? No, they don't. What do you think happens against 99? You win a stack. They probably don't even fold Ax if you make the bet small enough on the flop. If I'm in a tournament about to go to day two, and I have just 10k chips with blinds at 250/500, I want to either double up or bust. Now suppose you folded this river. Then you'd have 7000 chips and you'd have to drag yourself back to the tournament on the next day with blinds at like 600/1200 or whatever they'd be. F that.

The blinds were going to start at 300/600/0 on day 2, for 45 minutes. Had I won a small pot and had 13-15k on day 2, I would've felt ok. I can play with that.If I had lost a small pot and had 6-7k left, I am shortstacked, it's not ideal, but I am still alive and nobody would want to lose 7k of their chips on 300/600, so again, I can make something with it.If they had a pocket pair, or any kind of hand that I was beating, I would still be beating them on the river, *and* I would be giving them a chance to bluff away their money on this hit-or-miss board. So no need to rush on the flop.If I was beat? I had a chance to get a better idea of their hands by the way they play and act on those streets, and if I had a very good reason to believe I was beat? Folding is better than donking away my chips when I know I am behind.In other words, I see no reason to play aggressively on that board whatsoever. Or is there something else I am overlooking?

[Mercury69 3]

You kind of have to get it in there. Not liking the paranoia of some of your reasoning process.

[outsider13 0]

In other words, I see no reason to play aggressively on that board whatsoever. Or is there something else I am overlooking?

You have KK, 18bb, and a good flop. That seems like a good enough reason for me. You seem nittier than me, and that's pretty nitty.

[Agent 008 0]

You kind of have to get it in there. Not liking the paranoia of some of your reasoning process.

I am a much better deepstack player than I am a shortstack player. With deep stacks, this paranoia has been very healthy for me so far.I can see how I probably was overthinking this considering the size of my stack, especially since the players I was up against didn't look good or thinking (I wasn't on the table long enough to know anything else but that).But my reasoning aside, do you think I made the right play in the end? Or I should've shoved before that, or maybe have done something completely different?

[Agent 008 0]

You have KK, 18bb, and a good flop. That seems like a good enough reason for me. You seem nittier than me, and that's pretty nitty.

But as I said: if they missed the flop completely, which was the most likely option, they would probably fold to my aggression.There is very little danger in giving them a free card.Me being the original raiser, it is much more likely that I missed the flop and that BB hit the flop. Which means that BB is almost guaranteed to fire a bullet if I give him some space.If I'm behind, I lose anyway. If I'm ahead, I make more money by collecting bullets.I personally see more reasons to not be aggressive on the flop than to be aggressive.

[TrueAce13 18]

LOOOOL at this post. I think we are all getting completely leveled. If this is not a level, where do you play live?

[outsider13 0]

But as I said: if they missed the flop completely, which was the most likely option, they would probably fold to my aggression.There is very little danger in giving them a free card.Me being the original raiser, it is much more likely that I missed the flop and that BB hit the flop. Which means that BB is almost guaranteed to fire a bullet if I give him some space.If I'm behind, I lose anyway. If I'm ahead, I make more money by collecting bullets.I personally see more reasons to not be aggressive on the flop than to be aggressive.

It's also very likely that they have an overpair and you get overshoved too. Or they float you with overs.You aren't nearly deep enough at this point. Get your money in and make them make mistakes.

[HighwayStar 8]

I'd raise fold 6k on the turn for info-tainment.

[outsider13 0]

I'd raise fold 6k on the turn for info-tainment.

That would be sick for meta game purposes

[HighwayStar 8]

In all seriousness, bet/call flop. Shove turn.Bet an amount on the flop which gives you a 2/3-7/8 pot sized shove on the turn if called once.

[Agent 008 0]

It's also very likely that they have an overpair and you get overshoved too. Or they float you with overs.

So?The money goes in either way. The outcome of the hand is not changed by me betting or by me not betting.If I let them aggress, I also get a chance to pick some money up from a guy who's on a stone cold bluff.Also, what part of "I'd raise for information if I had a big enough stack" did you guys not understand?

[donk4life 34]

Raising for information is stupid

[TrueAce13 18]

Raising for information is stupid

Pretty much this

[Mills 0]

I was playing a 2-day deepstack tournament the other day, and here is the hand I had at the very end of day 1.Blinds were 250/500 no ante, and I just got transferred to this new table with around 10'000 chips. 1 guy went out after a few hands, and we were left 6 handed.I get delt KK in mid position, and am the first to enter the pot by raising to 1250. The only callers are small and big blinds. Both of them have around 20'000.3750 in the pot, I'm left with 8750.Flop comes 6h 6d 2c.Checks around to me, I check - with pocket Kings, I know that the risk of giving them free cards is minimal, and the big blind could easily have a 6.Turn comes a 4h. Small blind checks, Big blind bets 2000.Now, I am thinking to myself. I should probably raise here to 5000 for information, and if he calls and leads the river, I should probably fold. But I can't do that with the size of my stack, as I'd get myself committed.River comes a 2d.7750 in the pot, I have around 6750 left. Big blind puts me all in.Now, I am thinking to myself. If he had a 2 in his hand, checking the flop would be pretty stupid. Chances are neither me, nor small blind have a 6 or a 2, and any free card would be dangerous if you hold a 2! Checking the flop and betting the turn when a 4 drops wouldn't make too much sense if you hold a 2.If he had a 6, giving him the nuts? Why would he put me all in? I still have 7k chips, I am not pot committed, and what hand could I possibly have (from his perspective) to call him with? Therefore, I was pretty confident he didn't have a 6. It looked more like he sensed weakness with my hesitation on the turn, and was trying to push me off.Having though all that, I decided I was probably ahead, and called.Was it good play or bad play by me there? What do you think?

others have alluded to this, but the fact that you make a raise with two kings and immedeatley think the BB has a 6 because two of them flop is bizzare. this is a spot where you are trying to get it in every time. Either shove the flop or bet an amount where a hand like Ak/AQ will call the turn and be forced to call the river.Truth of the matter is, it dosen't sound like you want advice, it sounds like you want us to tell you how good you played it, problem is you didnt play it good. But instead of listening to why that may be, you are contesting every piece of advice. Can't learn much that way

[Agent 008 0]

others have alluded to this, but the fact that you make a raise with two kings and immedeatley think the BB has a 6 because two of them flop is bizzare. this is a spot where you are trying to get it in every time. Either shove the flop or bet an amount where a hand like Ak/AQ will call the turn and be forced to call the river.Truth of the matter is, it dosen't sound like you want advice, it sounds like you want us to tell you how good you played it, problem is you didnt play it good. But instead of listening to why that may be, you are contesting every piece of advice. Can't learn much that way

I don't think BB has a 6. I'm saying he *could* have a 6. He was in the big blind after all.If I thought I had played it well, I wouldn't have made this thread and wouldn't have bothered explaining myself. But so far, I have heard zero justification for playing it fast on the flop and turn, while I have explained my reasoning for playing the hand meekly. Yes, all my chips were going in either way, but if I play it meekly at least some of their chips are going in as well even if BBs hand is as bad as some overcards.And whoever said raising the turn for information is stupid... You don't play deepstack much, do you?

[outsider13 0]

I don't think BB has a 6. I'm saying he *could* have a 6. He was in the big blind after all.If I thought I had played it well, I wouldn't have made this thread and wouldn't have bothered explaining myself. But so far, I have heard zero justification for playing it fast on the flop and turn, while I have explained my reasoning for playing the hand meekly. Yes, all my chips were going in either way, but if I play it meekly at least some of their chips are going in as well even if BBs hand is as bad as some overcards.And whoever said raising the turn for information is stupid... You don't play deepstack much, do you?

1. It is stupid.2. [ ] deepstacked

[cdipierr 0]

I'm with the "this is a level" crowd...But, for the sake of argument, you want justification for playing it fast.Let's say the SB and BB aren't complete idiots calling with any random cards. You'll need to assign them some sort of range. You don't have a read on them as it's a new table, but you can probably assume broadways, suited aces, and mid pairs as reasonable. Anything like AK/AQ or JJ+ is going to shove on you pre. So now the flop comes down 662. We want to get value out of KK as it's a great hand on this board and we're not going to see a lot more opportunities because our stack is tiny (M is 13 at start of hand). If they both have something like KQ or KJ, they're probably going to fold to a bet, and that's too bad, but if they have something like AT or AJ, we want to bring them along, paying the whole way. They're unlikely to hit a card that beats you, sure, but you want to make them pay to try. There's 3750 in the pot, you have 8750, so we're a little hamstrung by our stack, but there's no reason not to bet. If you bet say 2000 here, you'll start building a pot where your goal is to get it in the middle easier on the subsequent streets. If they both fold, oh well, too bad. If one of them shoves on you, fantastic, because you're about to bust a 77 or 88.But instead you check. The turn comes a 4, so now we have a board of 6624. BB leads 2000, making the pot 5750. Our stack is still 8750. Our goal again needs to be to get our stack in the middle. We don't want to call this, and then have the BB check fold the river. So we'll need to raise, not for information (horrid), but for value. A common raise is 3x, but 3x his 2000 is 6000 of our 8750 stack, which makes no sense, so our only possible raise is a shove. Get it in here. BB is somewhat pot committed, and certainly calls us with any draw and any pair 77+. This is fantastic and should be our goal.

[SwolyswoND 1]

Gotta be a level - look at OP's post countLOL at 20 BBs being deepstackedLOL at KK checking 3way on 662rLOL at raising for information - especially when "deepstacked"

[FARGOpokerND 22]

[x] Raising for information is stupid[ ] I am folding KK to that river shove[ ] Deepstacked[x] Raising for information while deepstacked is still stupid

[Agent 008 0]

*facepalm*Where did I once say that 20bb is deepstacked? Where did I say that raising "for information" with that stack was a viable option? Where did I fold my KK to the shove?Either way, the guy on the BB had Q2. Off suit.