I Like My Hand, Apparently So Does Villain [$11 9man]

[Avii 0]

Reads: I have been running over the table with some crazy, laggy play. I haven't been caught bluffing yet though. Villain leans on the tight side.PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 11 Tournament, 25/50 Blinds (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Replayer from Poker Hands ReplayerSB (t1173)BB (t3362)UTG (t2605)Avii (MP) (t2940)CO (t2040)Button (t1380)Avii's M: 39.20Preflop: Avii is MP with A:diamond:, J:club:1 fold, Avii bets t150, 3 folds, BB calls t100Flop: (t325) 9:spade:, 10:diamond:, K:spade: (2 players)BB checks, Avii bets t150, BB calls t150Turn: (t625) Q:spade: (2 players)BB checks, Avii checksRiver: (t625) K:club: (2 players)BB bets t500, Hero (t2640) ?

[TrueAce13 18]

I'm not sure what i feel about the shove...like, i know that we can get called by worse, but i also think that he can check the flush on the turn and fire the river a lot of the time. As well as if he spiked 2 pair with KQ on the turn, he firing his boat. I think we have to just call here and not get ourselves in a high variance spot....i mean, i don't think we are ever gonna get called by worse a lot of the time and we don't need to turn our hand into a bluff

[monix 0]

I'm not sure what i feel about the shove...like, i know that we can get called by worse, but i also think that he can check the flush on the turn and fire the river a lot of the time. As well as if he spiked 2 pair with KQ on the turn, he firing his boat. I think we have to just call here and not get ourselves in a high variance spot....i mean, i don't think we are ever gonna get called by worse a lot of the time and we don't need to turn our hand into a bluff

I did not see a shove in the OP? I'd call for these reasons.

[SwolyswoND 1]

WTF at not betting the turn.

[ghostlove 0]

i agree. i think you bet the turn. as played you have to call. you beat a good variety of hands that can be shown here.i also agree that calling is the best option as played. no need to make the pot too big with a semi-marginal hand.

[Mercury69 3]

A bunch of stuff has you creamed on the river. Villain could be playing KJ/QJ/KT/QT or even J9 like this. He didn't raise PF, right?That being said, why not bet the flop bigger? And why the eff are you not betting the turn? Don't you know suck out cards come on the river?

[Init2WINitHI 0]

I agree - bet the flop bigger - like T$250 or even T$300 - when I see someone bet the same amount or less that tells me weakness. Play this much stronger on the flop. As played I am nervous about the check check on the turn as it could be a flush that was trying to induce a bet in order to check raise with a flush. I think we are calling the river because we can afford it, but do not raise or shove as you could very well be beat with a boat or a flush.

[Avii 0]

Tnx for the replies guys.I was not sure about betting the flop, because we have a gutshot draw to the potential nuts. I went ahead and bet anyway, guessing that the stacks may be to deep to warrant not betting.I did call the river and got shown 4s5s for the made flush, making me wonder if I did it wrong.

[SwolyswoND 1]

The problem in this hand wasn't the flop, it was the turn. I still cannot conceive any reason for not betting the turn hard.

[cashman 0]

The problem in this hand wasn't the flop, it was the turn. I still cannot conceive any reason for not betting the turn hard.

Really? First off once you miss the flop and have only a gut shot, why go crazy. An average size continuation bet seems prudent to me. If he has nothing and no potential he goes away. If he does have something, in particular the draw that he was on, you're going to have to bet a lot more on the flop to make him go away. He is only going to call you if he hit the board or has a nice draw. He called and now you have to think that a strong possibility was that he is on a flush draw and the 3rd spade may be the card he wanted. His check is suspicious. If you lead out w/a bet, you will only get called if you're behind, especially with that board. Why fire more chips into the pot. Unfortunately he does make a good value bet on the river and you have to call w/the straight.

[SwolyswoND 1]

Really? First off once you miss the flop and have only a gut shot, why go crazy. An average size continuation bet seems prudent to me. If he has nothing and no potential he goes away. If he does have something, in particular the draw that he was on, you're going to have to bet a lot more on the flop to make him go away. He is only going to call you if he hit the board or has a nice draw. He called and now you have to think that a strong possibility was that he is on a flush draw and the 3rd spade may be the card he wanted. His check is suspicious. If you lead out w/a bet, you will only get called if you're behind, especially with that board. Why fire more chips into the pot. Unfortunately he does make a good value bet on the river and you have to call w/the straight.

You have a freaking straight. Villain can have more hands besides a flush draw that will call the flop. Lots of those hands, especially Kx with one spade, will still call the turn. There are a LOT of hands to get value from on this turn.

[cashman 0]

You have a freaking straight. Villain can have more hands besides a flush draw that will call the flop. Lots of those hands, especially Kx with one spade, will still call the turn. There are a LOT of hands to get value from on this turn.

I respectfully disagree. On that board, with all of those potential draws, I don't think a bet on the turn is going to do you much good. If he has the Ace of spades, a K, or a J, he probably calls. Of course he will call or reraise if he has the flush already. In two of those three scenarios the implied odds are pretty big if he can hit a boat or the nut flush so it will take a big bet to make him go away. If you make a big bet and get called then what. Now you go to the river and if the board doesnt pair and no spade comes, you probably bet again right? In my opinion you end up using a lot more chips by betting the turn. From my experience, low stakes online players will make speculative calls and calls don't give you a lot of information. Say you bet the turn and he makes a very reasonable reraise with what he actually had, then what. Like you said, you have a straight. When the straight is the second best draw on the board I would recommend keeping the pot small if you can.

[GOCUBSGO 77]

WTF at not betting the turn.

I respectfully disagree. On that board, with all of those potential draws, I don't think a bet on the turn is going to do you much good. If he has the Ace of spades, a K, or a J, he probably calls. Of course he will call or reraise if he has the flush already. In two of those three scenarios the implied odds are pretty big if he can hit a boat or the nut flush so it will take a big bet to make him go away. If you make a big bet and get called then what. Now you go to the river and if the board doesnt pair and no spade comes, you probably bet again right? In my opinion you end up using a lot more chips by betting the turn. From my experience, low stakes online players will make speculative calls and calls don't give you a lot of information. Say you bet the turn and he makes a very reasonable reraise with what he actually had, then what. Like you said, you have a straight. When the straight is the second best draw on the board I would recommend keeping the pot small if you can.

We absolutely HAVE to bet this turn 100% of the time. Look at it this way, our goal is to make the villain make mistakes. There are so many hands he could have that we still are ahead of and can get value from. If we make the right size bet on the turn, he will almost always be making a mistake by calling (i think so many people forget this is our #1 goal in a hand). If he has a flush after the turn, and we bet, the villian is going to give us a lot of information about his hand. If he reraises, we can almost always lay this hand down. If he flats, then we check the river to him and depending on what he does, we fold/call. I don't see us losing any more chips than if we played it the same as the OP did.

[SwolyswoND 1]

I respectfully disagree. On that board, with all of those potential draws, I don't think a bet on the turn is going to do you much good. If he has the Ace of spades, a K, or a J, he probably calls. Of course he will call or reraise if he has the flush already. In two of those three scenarios the implied odds are pretty big if he can hit a boat or the nut flush so it will take a big bet to make him go away. If you make a big bet and get called then what. Now you go to the river and if the board doesnt pair and no spade comes, you probably bet again right? In my opinion you end up using a lot more chips by betting the turn. From my experience, low stakes online players will make speculative calls and calls don't give you a lot of information. Say you bet the turn and he makes a very reasonable reraise with what he actually had, then what. Like you said, you have a straight. When the straight is the second best draw on the board I would recommend keeping the pot small if you can.

It seems you need a lot of work on knowing when to bet and for what reasons to bet. I respectfully invite you to comb over some of the older threads that got a lot of replies, to get some background info on this topic.You nailed it above when you said "if he has the Ace of spades, a K, or a J, he probably calls." We WANT this. This is a worse hand calling. There are tons of hands the villain can call the flop with. Some of them are flush draws, but most of them are not. That means that we are still way ahead of the range of hands villain can have on the turn. Also, now a lot of the hands that villain has in his turn calling range are hands with a pair plus a flush draw. You cannot cannot cannot cannot give these hands a free river. If you are checking the turn, is it with the intention of folding? Villain will call a lot of worse hands, but will not bet many worse hands.

[cashman 0]

It seems you need a lot of work on knowing when to bet and for what reasons to bet. I respectfully invite you to comb over some of the older threads that got a lot of replies, to get some background info on this topic.You nailed it above when you said "if he has the Ace of spades, a K, or a J, he probably calls." We WANT this. This is a worse hand calling. There are tons of hands the villain can call the flop with. Some of them are flush draws, but most of them are not. That means that we are still way ahead of the range of hands villain can have on the turn. Also, now a lot of the hands that villain has in his turn calling range are hands with a pair plus a flush draw. You cannot cannot cannot cannot give these hands a free river. If you are checking the turn, is it with the intention of folding? Villain will call a lot of worse hands, but will not bet many worse hands.

I understand what you are saying and of course the number one goal in poker is to make your opponents make mistakes. Normally I would say you have to keep applying the pressure, the only problem here is that the 3rd spade is already out there and that is the only card that could have us beat. No spade on the turn and I would bet it very hard because it is such a draw heavy board. Once that spade hit then I think you could defend a check on the turn. Say you bet half to 2/3rds the pot on the turn, he smooth calls and then comes out with that same value bet on the river, which would be a bit larger due to the larger pot at that point. I think you still have to make the crying call and you lose a lot more on the hand.Don't get me wrong, I am not defending this as something you should always do. Obviously you never want to give away free cards to your opponents, but my read on that hand is that it was very possible that my opponent was drawing for the flush and hit it on the turn. A big part of this would be your read on the opponent in general. I play a live game with some very good players and we all have differing styles. Me and another guy play a lot of small ball and love suited runners and all those nice little hands with potential. Some of the other guys play a more tight aggressive style while others are very loose aggressive. I think it ultimately depends on the opponent's style and the range of hands he would call with here. That was just my take on this particular hand based on the way it progressed.

[Fade2241 0]

bet turn. as played call the river, pretty standard.