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Villain is LAG. His 3bet frequency was like 19. Anyone prefer to 4bet preflop?Hero (CO) ($100)Button ($100)SB ($105.20)BB ($89.90)UTG ($126.75)MP ($198)Preflop: Hero is CO with 8club.gif, 8spade.gif2 folds, Hero bets $3, Button raises to $10, 2 folds, Hero calls $7Flop: ($21.50) 6diamond.gif, 6heart.gif, 8diamond.gif(2 players)Hero checks, Button bets $11, Hero calls $11Turn: ($43.50) 10heart.gif(2 players)Hero checks, Button bets $18, Hero calls $18River: ($79.50) 9club.gif(2 players)Hero checks, Button bets $61 (All-In), Hero calls $61 (All-In)Total pot: $201.50 | Rake: $3

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This deserves to get seen by a few more people. From our resident Stupidhead...v1.27Feral Cow Poker Hand ConverterHEM/Poker Stars NL Hold'em $1.00/$2.00 - 6 playersButton: $237.98SB: $200.00BB: $60.00

I remember when this thread was all about how bad KJ was at 3betting

He's probably not flatting KJ's raise otf if he had a2. Besides, A2 is such a small portion of his range here, we are never ever ever ever ever ever ever folding the turn. People are stupid, they do

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I thought we don't call 3bets oop 100bb effective with middling pocket pairs?I mean it is co/btn so maybe it's ok? But then his 3bet is so high that his range is so wide that we don't really have teh implied odds (which thanks to DN on HSP I learned about this week during "did you know" with DN)

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I wasn't set mining. I know this guys range is huge. My plan was to C/R or C/C depending on the flop.I dunno, is it bad to let aggressive guys guy fire away in position?I has a pair. I ain't scurred.

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I doubt it can really be that profitable to call w/88 OOP there to an aggro villain. 4bet/call? interested to hear what sht00pidhead does.postflop is obv fine
What's the line, then? 4bet and get it in?Seems kind of meh, but maybe I'm wrong.
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I wasn't set mining. I know this guys range is huge. My plan was to C/R or C/C depending on the flop.I dunno, is it bad to let aggressive guys guy fire away in position?I has a pair. I ain't scurred.
how many hands did you have on him?What was his c-bet % and did you notice any barreling tendencies. Obv here you flop the nuts and he barrels. So like I assume he showed up with TT+ and not AK or whatev.What boards are you going to c/r? are you check/shoving?What boards are you going to c/c? Are you going to call 1 and give up?I just want to know more about your plans.
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how many hands did you have on him?What was his c-bet % and did you notice any barreling tendencies. Obv here you flop the nuts and he barrels. So like I assume he showed up with TT+ and not AK or whatev.What boards are you going to c/r? are you check/shoving?What boards are you going to c/c? Are you going to call 1 and give up?I just want to know more about your plans.
Only have 80 hands on him. 100% cbet. Why do you assume he has TT+? He can't have J10, J9, A10, A9, etc.? I also think every pocket pair is in his range. He's 3-betting as much as people open raise.I don't know exactly what boards I would be C/Ring on. In my mind, I figured he would fold if I 4bet him preflop - I just felt like 8s are way ahead of his raising range and if he has a monster, then so be it. I was pretty much ready to hold on to my pair. I would probably C/R a safe looking board to just take it down on the flop, and if an overcard hit, I was going to C/C.Edit: Yeah, I think most people can agree this is normally a 4bet. I guess I'm trying to argue that the optimal play is not always the best play.
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I know you weren't set-mining, because 88 has some postflop value (imo it's a bad hand to plan bluffing w/postflop because it's usually smashed when called, unlike say overcards), but being OOP is so disadvantageous since he'll be able to own us on a ton of boards, whether as a bluff or for value.4-bet/calling also seems spewy, because we don't know anything about villain's 4-betting tendencies; we only know that he's 3-betting extraordinarily light. I don't think it's so bad to 4-bet, though, because you need to dissuade him from 3-betting you so liberally, and 88 isn't a bad hand to stick in his face.

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You're right. His range is certainly wider than TT+But like yeah change our hole cards to 77 or 99 and then what are we doing?Agree with trystero that 4bet/getting it in is prob bad. When we 4bet his 19% range shrinks down to like JJ+ AQ+ or similar. So we are essentially 4bet bluffing with very little equity (2 outs/flipping)Also, my commenting that he showed up with TT+ is based on something that I've been thinking about/talking about recently; in that preflop stats don't tell the whole story.A guy can run 64/24 and not be that great of a mark because he's just trying to see a ton of flops and won't give action without a huge draw/the nuts. Like used to see guys with 50%+ vpip and get all excited and then get pissed when they fold every time I have top pair+. Obv we just adjust and raise them wide in position and cbet flops as they will fold a lot etc. imo, in a vacuum I think calling 88 oop is leak. As is 4betting as we fold out worse and get crushed by better.Also, don't sit to the right of a guy who 3bets 19%

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I love your name. Partly because I enjoy maths,haiku_proof.png mostly because QED bitches is such a fun saying.
:club: I got my degree in maths, nice for someone to pick up what my name means :ts
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Man you guys need to stop posting so much while I'm asleep!

Villain is LAG. His 3bet frequency was like 19. Anyone prefer to 4bet preflop?Hero (CO) ($100)Button ($100)SB ($105.20)BB ($89.90)UTG ($126.75)MP ($198)Preflop: Hero is CO with 8club.gif, 8spade.gif2 folds, Hero bets $3, Button raises to $10, 2 folds, Hero calls $7Flop: ($21.50) 6diamond.gif, 6heart.gif, 8diamond.gif(2 players)Hero checks, Button bets $11, Hero calls $11Turn: ($43.50) 10heart.gif(2 players)Hero checks, Button bets $18, Hero calls $18River: ($79.50) 9club.gif(2 players)Hero checks, Button bets $61 (All-In), Hero calls $61 (All-In)Total pot: $201.50 | Rake: $3
Who was villain? It's very villain dependent but flatting is going to be very difficult to make profitable in the long run. You're going to have to c/c down a ton of boards if he's at all aggro post, which he probably is if he's 3betting this much. I don't like the plan of c/r a bunch of flops because it's basically always air (although he may not be good enough to know that, or think you're somebody who jizzes themself when they flop the nuts and just gets the money in asap). But yeah, like you said your plan was to c/r a ton of flops, but here where you flopped the nuts you c/c, which kinda proves the imbalance. If I were villain here and you c/r, I would be calling down a ton of my range and jamming over your c/r with most of my air. Which is why I think I prefer a c/jam to a c/r, but I don't really like either. If you c/r you have to be calling a jam on like J92 or T54ssx flops and stuff for balance. So as you can imagine this is going to get very aggro and spewy quickly and will often create a dynamic that doesn't really favour you.I think in general, villain dependent, 4bet/calling is > flatting OOP and folding is probably fine too. The fact is that you're going to be abused in those CO v BTN situations a ton and there's not a huge amount you can do. I mean when I 3bet the Button light in that spot I'm very very very happy when the CO flats because they're OOP and playing either fit or fold, or super spewy. So flatting basically plays into their hands perfectly imo, which isn't what we really want.
I doubt it can really be that profitable to call w/88 OOP there to an aggro villain. 4bet/call? interested to hear what sht00pidhead does.postflop is obv fine
Pfft don't listen to him, he's a retarded nit :club:
Only have 80 hands on him. 100% cbet. Why do you assume he has TT+? He can't have J10, J9, A10, A9, etc.? I also think every pocket pair is in his range. He's 3-betting as much as people open raise.I don't know exactly what boards I would be C/Ring on. In my mind, I figured he would fold if I 4bet him preflop - I just felt like 8s are way ahead of his raising range and if he has a monster, then so be it. I was pretty much ready to hold on to my pair. I would probably C/R a safe looking board to just take it down on the flop, and if an overcard hit, I was going to C/C.Edit: Yeah, I think most people can agree this is normally a 4bet. I guess I'm trying to argue that the optimal play is not always the best play.
The bolded I think is a bit flawed. I assume what you're trying to say is that sometimes it's better to play exploitably than optimally. But in this situation I think that flatting here is going to be playing sub-optimally in a manner which allows you to be exploited.
Math is idiotic, maths however, isn't. :ts
QFT
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Man you guys need to stop posting so much while I'm asleep!Who was villain? It's very villain dependent but flatting is going to be very difficult to make profitable in the long run. You're going to have to c/c down a ton of boards if he's at all aggro post, which he probably is if he's 3betting this much. I don't like the plan of c/r a bunch of flops because it's basically always air (although he may not be good enough to know that, or think you're somebody who jizzes themself when they flop the nuts and just gets the money in asap). But yeah, like you said your plan was to c/r a ton of flops, but here where you flopped the nuts you c/c, which kinda proves the imbalance. If I were villain here and you c/r, I would be calling down a ton of my range and jamming over your c/r with most of my air. Which is why I think I prefer a c/jam to a c/r, but I don't really like either. If you c/r you have to be calling a jam on like J92 or T54ssx flops and stuff for balance. So as you can imagine this is going to get very aggro and spewy quickly and will often create a dynamic that doesn't really favour you.I think in general, villain dependent, 4bet/calling is > flatting OOP and folding is probably fine too. The fact is that you're going to be abused in those CO v BTN situations a ton and there's not a huge amount you can do. I mean when I 3bet the Button light in that spot I'm very very very happy when the CO flats because they're OOP and playing either fit or fold, or super spewy. So flatting basically plays into their hands perfectly imo, which isn't what we really want.Pfft don't listen to him, he's a retarded nit ;)The bolded I think is a bit flawed. I assume what you're trying to say is that sometimes it's better to play exploitably than optimally. But in this situation I think that flatting here is going to be playing sub-optimally in a manner which allows you to be exploited.QFT
He's right you know.
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I think in general, villain dependent, 4bet/calling is > flatting OOP and folding is probably fine too. The fact is that you're going to be abused in those CO v BTN situations a ton and there's not a huge amount you can do. I mean when I 3bet the Button light in that spot I'm very very very happy when the CO flats because they're OOP and playing either fit or fold, or super spewy. So flatting basically plays into their hands perfectly imo, which isn't what we really want.
I think you're right about this. Flatting is hugely villain dependent and generally not a good idea.
The bolded I think is a bit flawed. I assume what you're trying to say is that sometimes it's better to play exploitably than optimally. But in this situation I think that flatting here is going to be playing sub-optimally in a manner which allows you to be exploited.
Yes, sometimes it is better to be vulnerable. By optimal I mean: cannot be exploited. But, I don't really understand your second sentence - I'm fully aware that I can be taken advantage of when playing sub-optimally. You have to play sub-optimally if you want to take advantage of uber aggressive players. i.e. you have to call them down more.I'm certainly not trying to make this results oriented, but he showed up with J7s. I only say that to people who are giving him too much credit. This is 6max, he is on the button and he has a history of 3betting often.Edit: I'm also not trying to say that my play was 'the best.' I like how I played it against this particular villain, though, and I'm always willing to hear arguments for different plays. Like I said, I think Babs is correct in saying that this play is much more difficult to pull off to be profitable. Obviously it's easy with this flop, but on T93 and QJ2 it gets way harder.
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glad to have a HUD back..already paying off. villain over 298 hands was a big nit, 12/10, fold to 3-bet was 78% ...I'm still getting used to HEM's stats, but villain wasn't following thru w/cbets. figured it was best to proceed cautiously against a nit.Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comSB ($11.40)BB ($7.02)UTG ($11.38)MP ($10.98)CO ($10.15)Hero (Button) ($10.05)Preflop: Hero is Button with K :ts, A :DUTG bets $0.35, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.35, 2 foldsFlop: ($0.85) 6 :qh, A :jh, 5 :D(2 players)UTG bets $0.70, Hero calls $0.70Turn: ($2.25) 8 :club:(2 players)UTG bets $1.55, Hero calls $1.55River: ($5.35) 7 :4h(2 players)UTG checks, Hero checksTotal pot: $5.35 | Rake: $0.35Results:Hero had K :5c, A :D (one pair, Aces).UTG had 6 :D, 6 :3h (three of a kind, sixes).Outcome: UTG won $5

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Now this thread is starting to get somewheres. Apologies in advance if what I say doesn't make sense, I'm playing a lot of donkaments.

I think you're right about this. Flatting is hugely villain dependent and generally not a good idea. Yes, sometimes it is better to be vulnerable. By optimal I mean: cannot be exploited. But, I don't really understand your second sentence - I'm fully aware that I can be taken advantage of when playing sub-optimally. You have to play sub-optimally if you want to take advantage of uber aggressive players. i.e. you have to call them down more.I'm certainly not trying to make this results oriented, but he showed up with J7s. I only say that to people who are giving him too much credit. This is 6max, he is on the button and he has a history of 3betting often.Edit: I'm also not trying to say that my play was 'the best.' I like how I played it against this particular villain, though, and I'm always willing to hear arguments for different plays. Like I said, I think Babs is correct in saying that this play is much more difficult to pull off to be profitable. Obviously it's easy with this flop, but on T93 and QJ2 it gets way harder.
What I'm saying though, your reasons for flatting here is so you can exploit villain's propensity to barrel too much. However you're only gonna flop a set around 11% of the time, and even then sometimes he'll have a higher set, a flush, a straight etc. Sometimes he won't 3 barrel air. That makes it closer immediately, because your reverse implied odds aren't great. However sometimes you win the pot with just a pair of 8's, true. But he's gonna be barreling like that on those boards, imagine if that 8 was some other card, calling off 100bbs there is gonna be super super hard OOP there. Even worse, he won't be polarised to nuts/air, he could turn a better hand than ours into a bluff, often there are going to be a few cards on the board higher than our 8. Life is gonna suck. Even if we do find a call because we believe we're correct often enough, there is a huge metagame consideration. Whether you're right or wrong when you call him down once, he is gonna stop barreling his air for 3 streets because he now knows you're stationing off those spots. Instead he's going to merge his ranges and be value betting like top pair and stuff way more against us. And this is gonna hugely affect the profitability of the times we flop a set too because he's gonna stop barreling air nearly as much, which is obviously terrible.That's a really long block of text but I hope you can see why I think it's gonna be -ev longterm regardless of any potential short term ev (which may or may not be there anyway, it's gonna be marginal if at all)
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syntonic I think you're right: he's capable of barrelling here. I'm not giving him much credit...when someone's 3-betting so widely he can show up w/all sorts of garbage. If he's a thinking player then he knows that you're weak on this board so he'll try and blow you off your fragile pair. Or he's just an aggrodonk and will just fire x 3.problem is though w/88, as we've been going over here, that you need a good board. What do you do on a AK4 board? Do you c/c him all the way down? JT4? A92? So on so forth. So many boards just suck for 88...and when you're OOP, the pair's limitations are only aggravated.basically babylondonks' long block of text

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If only tilt worked out this way every time...feral_cow_icon.gifA pack of feral cows chewed their cuds for .0043 seconds to convert this handFull Tilt No-Limit Hold'em $0.10/$0.25 - 6 playersCO: $52.86 Button: $27.26 SB: $17.15 BB: $77.85 (Hero)UTG: $25.00 UTG+1: $25.14 Preflop: ($0.35) Hero is BB with 5h.gif7h.gif (6 players)UTG folds, UTG+1 raises to $1.25, 3 folds, Hero calls $1Flop: ($2.60) Qh.gif6c.gifJd.gif (2 players)Hero checks, UTG+1 bets $1.50, Hero raises to $4.50, UTG+1 calls $3Turn: ($11.60) 3s.gif (2 players)Hero bets $8.75, UTG+1 calls $8.75River: ($29.10) 7s.gif (2 players)Hero checks, UTG+1 bets $10.64, and is all in, Hero calls $10.64Hero showed 5h.gif7h.gif, and won ($47.87) with a pair of SevensUTG+1 showed Ad.gifKc.gif, and lost with Ace King highHero won $47.87(Rake: $2.51)

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syntonic I think you're right: he's capable of barrelling here. I'm not giving him much credit...when someone's 3-betting so widely he can show up w/all sorts of garbage. If he's a thinking player then he knows that you're weak on this board so he'll try and blow you off your fragile pair. Or he's just an aggrodonk and will just fire x 3.problem is though w/88, as we've been going over here, that you need a good board. What do you do on a AK4 board? Do you c/c him all the way down? JT4? A92? So on so forth. So many boards just suck for 88...and when you're OOP, the pair's limitations are only aggravated.basically babylondonks' long block of text
True true. I probably would have preferred to have QJs or something.
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True true. I probably would have preferred to have QJs or something.
Nah, I'd prefer to have the pair. Yes, a ton of boards make play difficult but an equal amount of boards are difficult for something like QJs. The only benefit to hands like that is when you make a hand it becomes fairly obvious how to play it... ie. flop a draw and suchIf you look at it from purely a set mining perspective... $7 to call with 13 in the pot and 90 implied... you're hovering around the breakeven point. So you only need a minor edge against the villain to profitIf you think he's better than you post flop or if you're unsure how to approach his playstyle, nit up for the time being until you get more info
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