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Let me know if you want to use my DC acct, those bastards charge way too much, so I feel free to spread the love
I only subscribed for a month and watched like all of the archives I wanted to... i mean if you keep a running subscription, yeah, it's too much.
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This deserves to get seen by a few more people. From our resident Stupidhead...v1.27Feral Cow Poker Hand ConverterHEM/Poker Stars NL Hold'em $1.00/$2.00 - 6 playersButton: $237.98SB: $200.00BB: $60.00

I remember when this thread was all about how bad KJ was at 3betting

He's probably not flatting KJ's raise otf if he had a2. Besides, A2 is such a small portion of his range here, we are never ever ever ever ever ever ever folding the turn. People are stupid, they do

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feral_cow_icon.gifConverted by the cows of Feral Cow PokerPokerStars No-Limit Hold'em $0.50/$1.00 - 7 playersButton: $109.95 SB: $100.50 BB: $116.40 (Hero)UTG: $103.65 UTG+1: $116.90 HJ: $107.95 CO: $76.20 Preflop: ($1.50) Hero is BB with Ad.gif9c.gif (7 players)2 folds, HJ raises to $3, 2 folds, SB calls $2.50, Hero raises to $13, HJ folds, SB raises to $27, Hero raises to $116.40 and is all-in,
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Lol @ Ninja pwning Babs so hard.
Is this a level bc TBH i don't view it that way. Babylon single-handedly challenges me to be able to take my thought processes and put them in a concrete form more than all other posters combined. Sometimes I'm right, sometimes he's right, sometimes we both learnded
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feral_cow_icon.gifConverted by the cows of Feral Cow PokerPokerStars No-Limit Hold'em $0.50/$1.00 - 7 playersButton: $109.95 SB: $100.50 BB: $116.40 (Hero)UTG: $103.65 UTG+1: $116.90 HJ: $107.95 CO: $76.20 Preflop: ($1.50) Hero is BB with Ad.gif9c.gif (7 players)2 folds, HJ raises to $3, 2 folds, SB calls $2.50, Hero raises to $13, HJ folds, SB raises to $27, Hero raises to $116.40 and is all-in,
I don't mind it. His backshoving 4betting range there is like JJ/TT and even if he calls a shove we have decent equities. Unless there is some other dynamic it is probably okay.
Lol @ Ninja pwning Babs so hard.Babs sir, you are wrong. Because he shortstacks, and you don't.
Genius
Is this a level bc TBH i don't view it that way. Babylon single-handedly challenges me to be able to take my thought processes and put them in a concrete form more than all other posters combined. Sometimes I'm right, sometimes he's right, sometimes we both learnded
Word. Idk how much I learn but it's always good to get long posts in here.Now, onto the meat of this quote-athon:
A ton of this is really really wrong and I apologize you think the 2p2ers are Gods amongst men. First off, my open is 4bbs... and if you have any limpers in front it needs to increase, which totally ends up committing your *entire* stack with many marginal equity hands if you're 20BB deep, making most of those c-bets effectively a shove. You can "float" somebody on 40bbs but it often doesn't work too well bc on the turn they have 2 streets in order to get a PSB in, so if anybody is even trying to pull it off any more than once in a blue moon it gets responded to by checking 100% of the range on the turn.Also, just because you take a 3-bet/fold line does not mean that you're turning your hand into a bluff. Don't you ever bet/fold for value? And if you're battling it out in the blinds by playing passively you're getting crushed longterm. Prime example:Standard 6-max Tagfish opens from button. He's running 18/16 with a 3bet% of 5 and a fold to 3bet of 60%. SB goes away and you're in the BB with 9's. He's obviously calling 3bets way too often which means there is plenty of value to be had from raising, but at the same time since he three balls so low his 4bet/shove range is going to be uber tight so when he comes over the top of you, you're going to need a hell of a lot better than 2-1 to call this shove.I think it's extremely odd for someone to sit here and say on one hand that they want to learn and want to improve at the game so they have an edge etc etc but at the same time sit there and assume there is only *one* way to profitably play. Furthermore I think it's hilarious you think your argument holds any weight since, simply, you don't ever play a short stack game yourself. You base your assumptions off of vague posts of other anonymous people and have 0 experience hands on to make that kind of judgment call.edit: i'd also like to add that it is not at all lucrative to compare how stack sizes play in a tournament to how they work in a cash game, simply because the only thing that changes between the two is the mathematics for properly stacking off... but when dealing with different sized effective stack sizes and how they alter the optimal play, it's right on target, which was what I was getting at.
1) 2p2ers are 99% retarded, I think we agree on that point2) I think opening 4bbs is a leak while shortstacking if you plan on folding to 3bets etc. but the example remains3) The whole point of 20bb poker is not to play a flop, so cbetting and whatnot isn't important. Any hand you open in EP you really wanna be stacking off on a lot of flops. The bread and butter of shortstacking is 3bet shoving in the blinds for fold equity over those pesky late position steals. You can't really 3bet shove a 40bb stack with a similar frequency because you lose too much when you get called and you win the same when he folds. 4) And agreed 3bet/folding or raise/folding isn't turning your hand into a bluff always, but I think it's leaky with so little behind when you can get similar ranges and more +ev with 20bb. Your example is irrelevant.5) I'm sorry I have no experience shortstacking, only experience crushing their souls. I'm still waiting to see evidence of your great winrate playing a 40bb stack at 200nl+ or w/e I said in one of my earlier posts (actually I may not have said this and just considered saying this). Also your little spiel about the "one and right way" is really the pot calling the kettle black. I think I've laid out my reasoning as to why a lot of what you have said is flawed fairly well throughout this thread except when I'm just dicking around. As to the bolded: That's exactly what I'm getting at, there's a huge difference between playing a 40bb stack against 100bb stacks (or a 20 against 100bb stacks) and a 40bb stack against 5-20bb stacks in a tournament. It's apples and oranges.
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I don't get it.... the eagle walking on water that is
The bird is walking in a way similar to the way a human would walk if they were strutting. "Haters gonna hate" just means that some people will inevitably disapprove of said swagger, but that these attitudes can and should be ignored.
actually, we all just kind of ignore fighter around here...He makes good posts, we prob nod our heads and then go back to BBV stuff...<3 fighter tho
all I read. :club:
I have nfi where you get your info, but shortstacking basically removes any chance of getting a decent winrate, it's basically a rakeback train to money. And I'd still like to hear your arguments for why 40bb stacking is more profitable than 20bb. There's a reason the min buyin was raised to 35 bb. Mostly for the reasons I stated in a previous post. Just LOL at that whole post.
Those were the reasons why it was raised. Doesn't mean that 20bb>40bb, just means that it is easier and as such done on more tables. Taking into consideration the easy to multi-table maybe 20bbb>40bb. However the deeper you are, assuming competence, the higher your winrate should be.
Well you've convinced me, I'm gonna make a post on 2p2 now enlightening the world about why 40bb stacking is better. The hundreds of shortstacking regs have been doing it wrong all this time. Hail Caesar. And just fyi, 200bb effective isn't really more profitable than 100bb in most situations. It just becomes variance in a lot of table settings. Of course you want to be deep with fish, but regs at 200nl+ are just going to **** you over if you're deep. It's something I learnt the hard way but mostly the players that insta buyin for 200bbs on deep tables are the players with a huge ego and just get into dick waving contests with regs while grinding out their 0.2 bb/100 winrate.40bb is not enough to really be effectively 3b/fold or ever really 3bet bluffing, you're lighting money on fire 3b/folding for >25% of your stack with any frequency whatsoever. And it's definitely deep enough to float/play one street poker. You raise to 3bbs, cbet 4bbs, you still have 33bbs in a 14-15bb pot. 20bb stackers on the other hand have a PSB left. It becomes much different. And it's just ludicrous to even compare 40bb stacking in cash games to a tournament. It's a lot different because of perceived fold equity, because normally 40bb is a large stack in a tourney (aka 2/3 of the table has less than you) so comparitively you're playing a much bigger stack.
This is wrong. You can see why buying in deep against fish is more profitable, because you will make less mistakes then he will. Someone will have an edge between two players and that edge is increased most of the time the deeper someone is. Difference between a fish and reg is that a reg makes less mistakes (usually). As long as the reg is making mistakes, having more play in the stacks will increase your edge most of the time. Have you ever played against tourney regs playing cash games. They are usually too aggro with TP type hands and spewy on a whole. If you look at the stacks they are use to playing, the amount they risk compared to pot:stack and hand frequencies, They are playing close to GTO when they have between 20-30bb. However they stumbled upon a way of winning instead of knowing why they are. example. You and me HU. blinds $1/$2 with Stack sizes of 4 dollars, What hands you going AIPF with ?Now with stack sizes of $2000, What hands you going AIPF with?This is all on at continuum. The further someone is away from GTO, the more that is exposed the deeper they are.
A ton of this is really really wrong and I apologize you think the 2p2ers are Gods amongst men. First off, my open is 4bbs... and if you have any limpers in front it needs to increase, which totally ends up committing your *entire* stack with many marginal equity hands if you're 20BB deep, making most of those c-bets effectively a shove. You can "float" somebody on 40bbs but it often doesn't work too well bc on the turn they have 2 streets in order to get a PSB in, so if anybody is even trying to pull it off any more than once in a blue moon it gets responded to by checking 100% of the range on the turn.
Using this as a standard is spew. Also your tourney example is bad because antes are present and effective stack sizes are rarely for the full 40bb, makes a massive difference.
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This is wrong. You can see why buying in deep against fish is more profitable, because you will make less mistakes then he will. Someone will have an edge between two players and that edge is increased most of the time the deeper someone is. Difference between a fish and reg is that a reg makes less mistakes (usually). As long as the reg is making mistakes, having more play in the stacks will increase your edge most of the time. Have you ever played against tourney regs playing cash games. They are usually too aggro with TP type hands and spewy on a whole. If you look at the stacks they are use to playing, the amount they risk compared to pot:stack and hand frequencies, They are playing close to GTO when they have between 20-30bb. However they stumbled upon a way of winning instead of knowing why they are. example. You and me HU. blinds $1/$2 with Stack sizes of 4 dollars, What hands you going AIPF with ?Now with stack sizes of $2000, What hands you going AIPF with?This is all on at continuum. The further someone is away from GTO, the more that is exposed the deeper they are.
watIn a GTO world yes you should buy in deeper. But in reality you are going to be playing shitty spots with marginal EV without any real reads on players who just punt stacks to each other a regular basis 200bb deep. It's not like you can just "exploit" them. In reality you are going to have a very hard time because they have very skewed ranges and (depending on how well you multitable) playing more than 2 tables is going to be super super super hard deep playing regs, regardless of any perceived edge. These aren't tourney donks we're playing, these are guys who played 6 deep tables and get into random raising wars and play the BTN like it's the nuts. Often the overall edge on the table is greater 100bb deep. That's why I said "in most situations" and depending on the table setting.
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watHow can you say wat when you agree with me at the end. "Often the overall edge on the table is greater 100bb deep"In a GTO world yes you should buy in deeper. Agreeing againBut in reality you are going to be playing shitty spots with marginal EV without any real reads on players who just punt stacks to each other a regular basis 200bb deep. I never talked about practicality of it or how much it would increase. It's not like you can just "exploit" them. I never said exploit. Don't know what you are quoting. In reality you are going to have a very hard time because they have very skewed ranges and (depending on how well you multitable) playing more than 2 tables is going to be super super super hard deep playing regs, regardless of any perceived edge. Who said anything about an easy or massive edge. I just said it increases. So 40bb should be more profitable then 20bb These aren't tourney donks we're playing, these are guys who played 6 deep tables and get into random raising wars and play the BTN like it's the nuts. I played a tourney reg once and he was bad, thought you might of had a similar experience, there is a difference but not much. Often the overall edge on the table is greater 100bb deep. That's why I said "in most situations" and depending on the table setting.I agree, wait wat
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Cool... let's all kiss and make up? and buy-in deep?
I'm not kissing until they put on make up of some kind. So make up then kiss. I wouldn't buy in deep without a reason. You don't want to look like peter eastgate and get bluffed off trips.
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Using this as a standard is spew.
I'm curious... why is a 4bb open a spew in your eyes?TBH I think it's fantastic bc I think I'm a better preflop player than 95% of players in my super amazing ego world, and ideally if I can get them to accept overbetting the pot as standard, i think I've accomplished a lot
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I'm not kissing until they put on make up of some kind. So make up then kiss. I wouldn't buy in deep without a reason. You don't want to look like peter eastgate and get bluffed off trips.
This is all I was really getting at. I was just doing my 1000 monkeys on 1000 keyboards impression. Also today has been so lol, never been more tilted to win $300 in my life. feral_cow_icon.gifFeral Cow Poker Hand ConverterFull Tilt No-Limit Hold'em $0.50/$1 - 6 playersSB: $211.45 BB: $254.20 (Hero)UTG: $120.40 UTG+1: $102.65 CO: $188.55 Button: $38.25 Preflop: ($1.50) Hero is BB with :qh:ts (6 players)UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, CO raises to $3, Button folds, SB calls $2.50, Hero raises to $14, CO folds, SB raises to $45, Hero calls $31Flop: ($93.00) :3h:D:5c (2 players)SB bets $63, Hero calls $63Turn: ($219.00) :D (2 players)SB bets $103.45, and is all in, Hero calls $103.45River: ($425.90) :D (2 players)SB showed :club::D, and won ($422.90) with three of a kind, QueensHero showed :jh:4h, and lost with a pair of AcesSB won $422.90(Rake: $3)[?] reason to play deep :club:
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Babylon ur such a donk... at least in the hand I posted where I got the retard to overplay QQ 200BB deep he didn't hit his set until *after* the money went in... if u were better at poker u'd have him hit it on the river so ur EV graph would look prettier

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I'm curious... why is a 4bb open a spew in your eyes?TBH I think it's fantastic bc I think I'm a better preflop player than 95% of players in my super amazing ego world, and ideally if I can get them to accept overbetting the pot as standard, i think I've accomplished a lot
You get the same fold equity with 2.5bb and lose less money the times you fold to a 3 bet.
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You get the same fold equity with 2.5bb and lose less money the times you fold to a 3 bet.
You fold to 3 bets?Seriously, that brings up a question I've been meaning to aks.What kind of hands should we be calling 3 bets with, assuming we'll have posistion post flop?For me, unless I know the 3 bettor is terrible post flop, I'm usually folding: small to mid pairs, my bad stealing hands (weak suited aces, weak suited kings, connectors)For the most part I'm calling (depending on the 3 bet size) with 88-JJ, AQs, most suited connectors, and some of my one gap suited hands.
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watIn a GTO world yes you should buy in deeper. But in reality you are going to be playing shitty spots with marginal EV without any real reads on players who just punt stacks to each other a regular basis 200bb deep. It's not like you can just "exploit" them. In reality you are going to have a very hard time because they have very skewed ranges and (depending on how well you multitable) playing more than 2 tables is going to be super super super hard deep playing regs, regardless of any perceived edge. These aren't tourney donks we're playing, these are guys who played 6 deep tables and get into random raising wars and play the BTN like it's the nuts. Often the overall edge on the table is greater 100bb deep. That's why I said "in most situations" and depending on the table setting.
I think you have a bias toward 100bb because that's where you have the most experience and skill. Deeper stacks can't be bad for everyone. It's a zero sum game.
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You get the same fold equity with 2.5bb and lose less money the times you fold to a 3 bet.
This isn't late MTT play. You have almost no FE whatsoever with a 2.5x open in cash, especially if most of the table is close to the full buyin.
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