2/5 Hand, Live

[shynepo3 0]

A hand from a recent 2/5 session. Bought in for $200 again (i know, i should be buying more, but for some reason, I'm more comfortable at the moment buying in at this amt..and the 1/2 game just doesnt suit my style for some reason, at this place). Anyways, i've been c-betting more than half the time, but not all the time. 1 hand, at the beginning of the session, i didnt c-bet A/K on a A-rag-rag flop, with 2 hearts, heads up in position. I called a turn bet, and then bet the river when it bricked. The table seemed a bit surprised at what I had when I was called.So, i've been playing tight-aggressive..and decided to raise with 5/6 suited to mix it up. UTG+1 is losing, and recently rebought for $500. He has been playing pretty loose in un-raised pots, and has called raises with marginal hands (i seen him call a $20 raise with K/10 unsuited after it went check check all the way to the river). But maybe the past 1.5 hours, he hasn't been involved. He lost a pretty big pot, but I was smoking, so I didnt see exactly what happened..UTG - foldsUTG + 1 - calls $5 (stack is $500ish)MP1 - foldsMP2 - foldsMP3 - foldsCutoff (hero) 5 6 - raises to $20 (stack is $575 after raise)Button foldsSB foldsBB foldsUTG + 1 calls $15Flop ($47)8 8 7 UTG + 1 checksHero checks (i think i should have bet here...i was thinking at the time, he wouldn't give me much credit for the c-bet, and would check raise probably a good amount of the time, especially in his losing state...i also thought, if i hit the straight on the turn, my hand would be well disguised. i also thought, if i did have a big overpair, i'd play it the same way, or he would think i would play it the same way...) (but after thinking for a bit, i thought it would have been good if he check raised, cause likely a re-raise by me would take it down and if called, i still had the open ended...i wasn't likely to be drawing dead....)..i don't know, thoughts????Turn 3 UTG + 1 bets $75Hero ?ill let u know what happened later on...thanks for the help in advance..

[KingJames 11]

If he bet $75 into ~$45 ($20+$20+BB+SB-Rake) then this is a snap fold.We're drawing to the bottom end of an oesd on a paired board.As far the flop... I am not sure. We have some decent equity and no showdown value so I would generally c-bet this flop. Based on your image, we don't know if villains is paying attn, generally they don't in a live game, so I don't know if you checking back the flop can make villain think you have a good hand...

[shynepo3 0]

If he bet $75 into ~$45 ($20+$20+BB+SB-Rake) then this is a snap fold.We're drawing to the bottom end of an oesd on a paired board.As far the flop... I am not sure. We have some decent equity and no showdown value so I would generally c-bet this flop. Based on your image, we don't know if villains is paying attn, generally they don't in a live game, so I don't know if you checking back the flop can make villain think you have a good hand...

i calculated the pot size wrong...thanks...fold huh..really? u dont think a re-raise on the turn is good? i thought him over-betting the pot seemed like a bluff...

[Stupidhead 2]

Post flop I bet $30. There's gonna be a ton of random K10 type hands that we fold out right away. If he does call, it's unlikely that he's folding to a double barrel, but it's also very unlikely that he'll donk the turn. So we're gonna get to see a free river most of the time.As played, fold. The pot is way too small to be chasing and we don't have implied odds to back us up. Even if we were 100-150 BB's deep, we don't know if he'll pay us off enough of the time for this to be profitable.

[Stupidhead 2]

i calculated the pot size wrong...thanks...fold huh..really? u dont think a re-raise on the turn is good? i thought him over-betting the pot seemed like a bluff...

I'd need a specific read to be rebluffing in this spot.

[trystero 0]

Yea you have no showdown value, you have to bet this board and it's a decent one to bet being paired. The reasons to check imo is 1) if villain's very aggressive and can check-raise light, or 2) if you're against a handreader who will put you on a bluff if you hit your hand later on because you checked the flop. Checking isn't terrible because you can barrel plausible overcards like A/K if villain does check to you again.A 3-bet on the flop is spew. You probably are drawing live, as most players are not check-raising fullhouses/quads, but you're looking to get stacks in as a serious underdog if you do that. Bet/3-bet against someone you know, not some dude whose game you know nothing aboutYou definitely shouldn't play a big overpair like this against some random donk. Bet and get maximum value against the pairs - and ace-high - that he's unable to let go. Similarly, with AK on that other hand, you have to bet the flop. There's no point being tricky against players who'll just call you with worse. Turn raise is madness. For one his overbet doesn't necessarily mean he's bluffing. He could have a hand like 66/99 and be terrified of overcards coming, and he just wants to take the pot down now. Also, you are representing 88/77/33/87, and that's it, and to be honest you'd probably call in position with those hands. You'd also bet 33 on the flop, I bet, because you have a pair on this dry board and you don't want to be counterfeited. I'm not saying he's handreading, because he's probably on the level of "I have a pair, call," but if he is reading then your line doesn't look too credible. Would you play QQ+ like that? I doubt it

[Royal_Tour 0]

We're drawing to the bottom end of an oesd

Just to point this out, this isnt really valid if a 4 lands we have the nut straight. if a 9 lands we have the low end of a straight but villain would have needed a gut shot for the 9 to have made him a higher straight.if a Jack lands completing the higher end of a straight, It doesnt affect us since we have no straight.

c-bet this flop. Based on your image,

my advice, /\ This

[KingJames 11]

Just to point this out, this isnt really valid if a 4 lands we have the nut straight. if a 9 lands we have the low end of a straight but villain would have needed a gut shot for the 9 to have made him a higher straight.if a Jack lands completing the higher end of a straight, It doesnt affect us since we have no straight.my advice, /\ This

But having an oesd with over-cards is inherently strongerAlso on an 887 board, having 9T also gives us a blocker to some of his trips holdings like 98s and if we have the 56 and a 9 rolls off giving us the straight... it gives that 98 a sweet boat... so yes IMO having the ass-end of an oesd does make a difference... when we look at pot equity

[Royal_Tour 0]

But having an oesd with over-cards is inherently strongerAlso on an 887 board, having 9T also gives us a blocker to some of his trips holdings like 98s and if we have the 56 and a 9 rolls off giving us the straight... it gives that 98 a sweet boat... so yes IMO having the ass-end of an oesd does make a difference... when we look at pot equity

same can be said for 7,8s so you could be drawing dead.I personally dont like the idea of a 9 coming off and us being much more interested in the hand.I'd like to see a 4 and a 4 only. but that didnt happen, so i'm done with this hand.regardless, my line is to cbet this flop, and throw it in the muck when he calls or raises.

[rrumsey 0]

i dont like a cbet on this flop, our raising range pre, if we have a decent image, misses this flop totally the vast majority of the time, it is kind of a scary texture we should be able to see a free river a decent amount of the time. Also, snap fold ASAP. i mean unless he does moves like this an ass load of times. even then, i stilll fold. we have a naked st8 on a paired board with flush draws that we dont block, no reason to get fancy

[Royal_Tour 0]

i dont like a cbet on this flop, our raising range pre, if we have a decent image, misses this flop totally the vast majority of the time, it is kind of a scary texture we should be able to see a free river a decent amount of the time. Also, snap fold ASAP. i mean unless he does moves like this an ass load of times. even then, i stilll fold. we have a naked st8 on a paired board with flush draws that we dont block, no reason to get fancy

we should be cbetting because our image is TAG. TAG's cbet flops with overpairs. if this guy (hero) tells me he was a TAG, and he raised pf. then fired the flop. i'd assume he holds AQs+ 10,10+until he shows differently that he cbets air, its would be an easy fold for most villains who missed.

[shynepo3 0]

well, i guess i did the donkish thing...i re-raised his turn bet and he folded....i had to meant to raise to 175, but i didnt realize my stacks in front were 100 stacks and not 125..which i had stacked them previously...i was chip shuffling 50, which i ended up pushing with the 100 stack...so it was a 150 min raise..i've been making stupid mistakes like this lately, since i started playing again...not putting the right amt in, etc.anyways, i doubt cause it was a min raise that he folded..a few of these players, tend to check raise flop with air, or fire turn after checking to raiser on flop...i'm not saying it's all the time, but i've been guessing right...but, i should have bet the flop...was getting too tricky...and based on me saying him firing on turn with nothing, then it's better to take it down with a c-bet...

[shynepo3 0]

we should be cbetting because our image is TAG. TAG's cbet flops with overpairs. if this guy (hero) tells me he was a TAG, and he raised pf. then fired the flop. i'd assume he holds AQs+ 10,10+until he shows differently that he cbets air, its would be an easy fold for most villains who missed.

at this game, it's sometimes incredible how stubborn some ppl are...22-66 is def calling...and mayb two overs as well...just to hope i dont fire on turn....not all, but this guy was in that category for sure...but i'm not saying he was going to call for sure..

[SwolyswoND 1]

Wow what the hell at people saying not to cbet this flop... if you aren't cbetting here what the hell kind of flops are you guys cbetting on? It's a middle paired rainbow flop for pete's sake

[Andynice20 0]

Wow what the hell at people saying not to cbet this flop... if you aren't cbetting here what the hell kind of flops are you guys cbetting on? It's a middle paired rainbow flop for pete's sake

+1 In all honestly unless you flop something crazy how much better of a flop are you looking for after raising with small suited connectors? Plus C betting the flop will prob let you see the river for free if you brick the turn like you did.Plus you guys gotta keep in mind that this is live 2-5... higher level thinking is wasted here as most people at this level live don't get past what they have in their hand, never mind what they think you have, pot odds, etc etc.

[rrumsey 0]

i think this is a sucker flop to cbet, any decent villain is going to put us on missed overcards and be able to move us off of our hand, that does have some showdown value if we hit and didnt bet. i mean really what do we rep most of the time here,.... missed hands,..... yah that is why i dont cbet, the flop texture yes is slightly scary, but we need more of a lose image to represent any madewhy not take a free card when we are drawing to, frankly a weak hand on this flop. cbetting only stabs at this pot, then what,..... we are screwed. there are like no good second barrel cards, so we have no ability to tell a complete story hear and bluff nicely,...i mean that is just my opinion. yes a cbet could work, but i dont think it is the best option

[SwolyswoND 1]

Rumsey, I hate to come down on you hard here but I've been noticing a trend in your posts.You use terminology to make it sound like you know what you're talking about, but quite frankly you don't use the terms correctly and you don't understand the reasoning behind it.

any decent villain is going to put us on overcards and move us off

No they won't. 99% of live players do not c/r air.

that does have some showdown value if we hit and dont bet

WTF? we have no SD value right now. If we did hit, why would we not bet? You are making ZERO sense.

what do we rep here? missed cards

Or an overpair? Which is mostly what you see in live...

the flop texture yes is slightly scary

No, its the exact opposite. This is what i mean when I say you don't understand the concepts that you purport to apply. This is about as dry a flop as possible. It's paired in the middle and rainbow.

why not take the free card...blah blah blah

Because villain will fold any unpaired broadway hands, which are still beating us. It's called a semi-bluff. If he c/c, then we can take the free card on the turn.As a PFR you should be c-betting like 90% of flops when HU. The ones to avoid cbetting on are where you hold like AK or 88 on a board of QJ9. Not 887 rainbow.

[FARGOpokerND 22]

C-bet flop. Gets him to fold his junk hands that missed and you have redraws if he calls.

[Stupidhead 2]

As a PFR you should be c-betting like 90% of flops when HU. The ones to avoid cbetting on are where you hold like AK or 88 on a board of QJ9. Not 887 rainbow.

I don't think it's quite as high as 90%, but I agree with everything you posted.

[shynepo3 0]

So i agree, if i should C-bet on this flop...especially with my holding, that has no showdown value if un-improved. But, what if i'm check-raised...do i continue depending on pot odds etc?

[Stupidhead 2]

So i agree, if i should C-bet on this flop...especially with my holding, that has no showdown value if un-improved. But, what if i'm check-raised...do i continue depending on pot odds etc?

If it's small enough, call and fold unimproved. But this is a spot where I don't expect to be check-raised that often.

[SwolyswoND 1]

Yeah then just play the value of your draw.

[Andynice20 0]

...why not take a free card when we are drawing to, frankly a weak hand on this flop. cbetting only stabs at this pot, then what,..... we are screwed. there are like no good second barrel cards, ...

Why not CBet half to 3/4 pot on the flop. If he folds AJ, KQ, K10, QJ etc then great. If he calls, he'll most likely check turn too. If we hit we can pot it, if not we can check and see the river for free. I mean this really seems the most logical line and one that costs us the least if we miss and makes us the most if we hit.

[Merby 3]

CBet flop.As played snap-FOLD.