Bluffing

[trystero 0]

in a 3bet pot.Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (9 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comBB ($4.80)UTG ($2.15)UTG+1 ($10)MP1 ($3.60)Hero (MP2) ($17.41)MP3 ($22.37)CO ($13.75)Button ($10.16)SB ($12.48)Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 10 , Q 3 folds, Hero bets $0.30, MP3 raises to $0.80, 4 folds, Hero calls $0.50Flop: ($1.75) 9 , A , 8 (2 players)Hero checks, MP3 bets $0.90, Hero calls $0.90Turn: ($3.55) 10 (2 players)Hero checks, MP3 checksRiver: ($3.55) K (2 players)Hero bets $2.80

[DonkSlayer 1]

I like b/c I think villain bets turn with a diamond facecard in the hole.

[Stupidhead 2]

I like a bluff here. But I bet $1.90. Either he's calling with a diamond or he's folding everything else.

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

I like b/c I think villain bets turn with a diamond facecard in the hole.

Why?Seems to me the same thinking would apply to the Villain assessment of our line on the Turn.I really don't like the Bluff in this situation. A bluff is a story and I don't really get the story we're telling with the Bluff. Also, there are too many ways to lose this hand.

[Stupidhead 2]

Why?Seems to me the same thinking would apply to the Villain assessment of our line on the Turn.I really don't like the Bluff in this situation. A bluff is a story and I don't really get the story we're telling with the Bluff. Also, there are too many ways to lose this hand.

By checking the turn villain is telling us he has at best a one pair hand. There is no way he is checking 2 pair/sets/straights/flushes since so many cards kill his action. While some of those 1 pair hands have a diamond, the majority do not. And non diamond hands are never calling.

[tskillz187 0]

Fold pf, your flop call is bad imo.If you want to call pf OOP you need to play boards that are likely to be scary very aggro, so if you aren't going to c/f this board you should either b/3b it or c/r it and line up big turn and river bets.As for sizing on the river I agree with Stupid.

[trystero 0]

How do you fold pf Tim w/170bbs to what's basically a minraise? QTo I probably fold but not suited

[Stupidhead 2]

How do you fold pf Tim w/170bbs to what's basically a minraise? QTo I probably fold but not suited

We're OOP, there are very few flops we're gonna want to get stacks in with, and when we do hit hard, it's going to be very hard to get full value.

[trystero 0]

I understand all of that, but it's not like we're going to put stacks in w/just top pair. We have to assume basically that villain's competent to not show a profit playing QTs to a minraise. He minraised us; he's not competent**it's close enough to a minraiseedit: I can't see pf being a mistake either way

[tskillz187 0]

This raise is closer to 3x than a minraise, I think it's pretty clear cut fold pf.But if you want to play these hands OOP to 3bets you hafta play hella aggro postflop. Like I'd c/r here all day long and I'd only do that against someone I felt very confident would be able to fold AJ-AK with some pressure. You might get two pair to fold if you get a dia and a straight card to fall. C/C flop seems like the worst option to take. By c/c you need villain to check back turn just for the opportunity to make a bluff that may or may not work.

[trystero 0]

it's 10 cents closer to 3x than a minraise, I'll give you that

[NoBBiR 0]

I think it's def. a fold at FR PF. If it was 6max I might be able to be talked into it.Are you not hero?

[trystero 0]

Tim I just don't believe you. I don't believe that even OOP if a fish 3-bet you for not even 3x your initial raise, and you had QTs, that you'd instamuck when 170bbs deep. Now you can say, "well we don't know he's a fish," and there's merit to that, but imo this hand's still too good to fold to a small raise, and his small raise tells us that he's not very goodFold otf seems premature. Villain's put out a weak bet and we have 4 outs to the nuts (w/the Ad on board we can't really put him on a flush draw) and BD hearts. Had he bet ~pot I'd just fold. Board's constituted in such a way that we can steal the pot later. I definitely made a mistake on the turn though. I had planned to lead on a scary turn and barrel the river, but then I picked up the pair, and I badly decided to check and try to get a free card because he's probably going to c/b a decent amount. I got lucky that the river came perfectly

[krup24 0]

hand is so much better if you c/r flop otherwise it's a c/f like almost every time for me if your not going to c/r. i do call the small 3b pf with villian and i both being deep although i rarely would open this at a fr table in ep.

[mtdesmoines 3]

We're OOP, there are very few flops we're gonna want to get stacks in with, and when we do hit hard, it's going to be very hard to get full value.

This raise is closer to 3x than a minraise, I think it's pretty clear cut fold pf.But if you want to play these hands OOP to 3bets you hafta play hella aggro postflop. Like I'd c/r here all day long and I'd only do that against someone I felt very confident would be able to fold AJ-AK with some pressure. You might get two pair to fold if you get a dia and a straight card to fall. C/C flop seems like the worst option to take. By c/c you need villain to check back turn just for the opportunity to make a bluff that may or may not work.

nm

[rrumsey 0]

i think you only have 3 options here:1.) c/r flop if you know villain cbets a high % then folds to play back at him, this is a pretty simple and transparent line2.) slightly more sexy and something i would use against a decent thinking player, float flop donk bet turn on wet turns, this can look a lot more like a hand, but we need a pretty clean image and we need to have floated a few times for this to work at all, and dont fall too much in love with it bc it can bite us in the ass ( this same move could be a c/r of wet turns also, kinda depends on what you have done with your real hands and image)3.) c/f, i mean he does have a decent A a medium amount of the time, why not? Yes we MAY be able to move him off, but void of any reads we can ditch very easily and sleep well at night.By the time we get to river, it is either he has a weak diamond he call, has a good diamond and raises, has a naked A and maybe thinks about hero calling but folds, or he goes ahead and hero calls bc you didnt play the hand like you really do have a flush. either way it is not a advanced way of thinking to go level 1 on the river, we should have set things up before then. Did you miss a c/r on turn or where you hoping to see a 4th diamond and donk bet river? what was your plan?

[tskillz187 0]

Detailed post coming tonight....

[tskillz187 0]

Tim I just don't believe you. I don't believe that even OOP if a fish 3-bet you for not even 3x your initial raise, and you had QTs, that you'd instamuck when 170bbs deep. Now you can say, "well we don't know he's a fish," and there's merit to that, but imo this hand's still too good to fold to a small raise, and his small raise tells us that he's not very goodFold otf seems premature. Villain's put out a weak bet and we have 4 outs to the nuts (w/the Ad on board we can't really put him on a flush draw) and BD hearts. Had he bet ~pot I'd just fold. Board's constituted in such a way that we can steal the pot later. I definitely made a mistake on the turn though. I had planned to lead on a scary turn and barrel the river, but then I picked up the pair, and I badly decided to check and try to get a free card because he's probably going to c/b a decent amount. I got lucky that the river came perfectly

Sigh...I'm not sure if I feel like writing this all out or how well written it will be. First off, we really don't know this guy is a fish. All we have is betting patterns I guess....and the fact that he's got 170bbs in front of him at a 100bb table. Fish don't usually win and fish that do win don't usually stay seated in games. So I don't think there is a spot on read that this guy is a fish. Even if we agreed that this guy sucks and he's a fish, that's very general. Most fish that I know call too much, not 3b too much, kind of important. IF you want to play suited connectors/gappers in a 3b pot you should play them against someone with a wide 3betting range. It's the exact opposite of concept of set mining.When you set mine you want a guy to have a really strong range... like QQ-AA. So if you hit, he has an overpair and he won't fold and you get his stack. Well when you have suited connectors/gappers you want the guy to have a weaker range. Your money come from flopping draws with suited connectors/gappers. A draw! So it's not a made hand, and people don't fold overpairs...you can't semi-bluff someone profitably that isn't folding, so ideally you want villain to have whiffed AQ or something and you c/r he folds and you win the pot 100% of the time right there.This is one of the reasons I think folding pf is a superior play. But yes there are many more....Despite what it may seem by having deeper stacks, calling 3bs OOP is WORSE the deeper you get. I know most people only focus on the "Well he has 170bbs!" thought and that it'll just be all yours if you flop gin. Well, you don't flop gin very often and when you do it's really fucking hard to get paid. You shouldn't go into the hand thinking about all of the money you're going to get when the flop comes QT2 and he has AA. Those situations are sooooo standard and I think you'd be surprised to find out that AA doesn't fair that terrible even when you do flop huge. If he has the Ad and you flop a flush you don't have him crushed, if you flop two pair and he has an overpair he has board pairing outs, set outs, and running straight outs. These are the examples when you actually run him down and flop huge on him when he's holding a huge hand. In the most optimistic examples you still aren't really happy.Much more often you'll miss the flop or hit a small piece. Now you're in a tough situation. If you flop a flush draw and get it all in you're a dog to an overpair as we've gone over with the "semi-bluffing". If you flop a pair how many streets are you calling? What about when you just flat out miss? What boards are you c/f what boards are you running a bluff on? You sure as hell aren't going to turn profits just playing your hand for value. If you decide to run a bluff what cards do you continue on, how often will you triple barrel, how often do you think this guy is folding? A lot of this stuff you need reads on or history, just another reason why calling that first 3bet is so difficult. It's compounding mistakes.It's a much smaller mistake imo if you call this 3b and you're 100bbs deep. If you call with something like QThh then it would be because you think his 3b range is too wide. Then you can c/shove on him whenever you flop almost anything. You can check/shove 678 flop with a gutshot and two overs, you can c/shove T22 board for value because you think he might snap with 77 or because you can pick off his cbet when he has just two random cards. By calling when you are deep OOP you don't have that weapon because the stacks are too deep to check shove, so you can only c/r and too something reasonable and then you are playing a big pot OOP with a decent amount of play left.All that I have written so far is if we think the 3betting villain has only a super strong range like QQ-AA/AK. So what if you think he has a really weak range? How is that going to change the dynamics of the hand? Will it make calling the 3b better or worse?Also, I really don't know how to make you believe me, but it doesn't matter. I would fold a ton of the time here, like I'd have to think of specific villain types to not fold against and they are few and far between. I think I can probably call wider than you can because I think I'll make less mistakes post flop than you, like I'd c/r this flop and I'd have plans for lots of other boards. Even with that I still wouldn't normally call here without specific reads on villain. I'll post more if people decide to come up with plans of attack against a villain that is 3betting wide, because I don't want to lecture about every way to play a 3bet pot with various holdings if no one is interacting, there's already too much info on the internet about poker. Come up with the range you think he 3bets and how you think he proceeds with his full 3betting range on various boards.

[trystero 0]

I still call pf....but good post

[KingJames 11]

Nice post, timmy