$2-5 Game, Decesion

[shynepo3 0]

This is a 2-5 live game. , Min buy in is $200, max is $500. I'm in the cut-off with Q Q . I'll do my best to make this read-able..UTG + 1 - calls $5UTG + 2 - calls $5UTG + 3 - foldsCutoff - hero - raises to $30 (stack is $650)Button - calls (stack is $85 left)Small blind folds Big Blind calls (stack is $800)everyone else folds3 players FLOP ($102)2 3 6 Big blind checksCutoff - hero - bets $55Button goes all in for $85BB raises $190Cutoff - hero?I'm not worried about the button, since he's all in. He's steaming, and has been playing erratically....I put him on a flush draw at best, maybe a 2, 3, or 6. Even A-4.I'm concerned with the big blind. He's been calling loose pre-flop, with small suited hands. He would not raise with a flush draw here, and I truly believe he thinks he has the best hand. I know if he had QQ or better, he would have re-raised pre. So I'm worried about a set or straight, or 2 pair....I definitely would have to been seen as tight. I've missed a few value bets on the river in some pots, but for the most part, agressive when I was in the hands. My $200 stack had grown due to a flopped straight and went all in, as well as another hand where i was called when I had AA pre-flop against AJ (the button was this caller).Any thoughts? I will let u know what happened later on..

[Royal_Tour 0]

This is a 2-5 live game. , Min buy in is $200, max is $500. I'm in the cut-off with Q Q . I'll do my best to make this read-able..UTG + 1 - calls $5UTG + 2 - calls $5UTG + 3 - foldsCutoff - hero - raises to $40 (stack is $650) - theres 17 in the pot now. and because you want to thin the field, you raise more.Button - calls (stack is $85 left)Small blind folds Big Blind calls (stack is $800)everyone else folds3 players FLOP ($132)2 3 6 Big blind checksCutoff - hero - bets $105 - You want to bet about 70-75% pot here. so 55 is low. **note, i put in 105 because my preflop raise was bigger, so the cbet on the flop will be bigger."Button goes all in for $75 (because 10 more preflop)

My advice is in bold above. +after the button goes all in for 75. its going to be difficult for BB to make his raise now. In the original hand, there was a very small cbet. followed by a short raise all in.then he re-raised.he is iscolatiing vs the button. probably because he has 77-10,10. and thinks its good.

[shynepo3 0]

My advice is in bold above. +after the button goes all in for 75. its going to be difficult for BB to make his raise now. In the original hand, there was a very small cbet. followed by a short raise all in.then he re-raised.he is iscolatiing vs the button. probably because he has 77-10,10. and thinks its good.

edit***sorry, I re-read the bold, and realized you had changed the values... nvmbut still, why 77-10, and not 2 pair/set?

[shynepo3 0]

edit***as played, what would you have done?and you were exactly right, he had 10/10. i tanked for a good 3 min, and then folded face-up. whole table thought i was nuts....2nd time in 2 sessions where i folded the nuts...(not the real nuts, but u know). i didnt even see what the button *edit* had, he mucked after turn/river. flush didnt come...6 on turn, and 8 on river...

[Royal_Tour 0]

edit***as played, what would you have done?and you were exactly right, he had 10/10. i tanked for a good 3 min, and then folded face-up. whole table thought i was nuts....2nd time in 2 sessions where i folded the nuts...(not the real nuts, but u know). i didnt even see what the blind had, he mucked after turn/river. flush didnt come...6 on turn, and 8 on river...

So, this is why you have to pay close attention to the table and your spot at the table.The short stack is what did you in here. and its this exact reasoning why i suggested you make sure your bet sizing is set up properly. as played, I would expect him to have the small overpair like i said, and if stacks are deep enough (which they are..*just) I'd call the raise. when you call the raise you're basically turning your hand face up, but it will take villain lots of balls to fire big bets on the turn or river. He's going to want to put you on AK often, but the fact that he is OOP is going to prevent him from betting big.

[shynepo3 0]

i was so mad at myself, i left shortly after....the thing was, i remembered a hand, where he bet big..with a flush draw present, and he showed up with 44 set....i guess i kept thinking about this, and felt there was no way my hand was good...but i could just have been easily facing a set/two pair right? i mean, it's close right?

[Royal_Tour 0]

i was so mad at myself, i left shortly after....the thing was, i remembered a hand, where he bet big..with a flush draw present, and he showed up with 44 set....i guess i kept thinking about this, and felt there was no way my hand was good...but i could just have been easily facing a set/two pair right? i mean, it's close right?

a set, maybe. 2 pair.. noplus. a set in this spot would be better off to let action back to you so you re-raise. its perfect, think about it. small stack goes all in. he flats cuz its a short raise. nothing too suspicious. and now action back on you. he knows you have the option to re-pop. and by just flat calling, it looks weaker. maybe two overs on a FD. etc...the fact that he raised, makes it look like iscolation and makes me auto think medium overpair

[shynepo3 0]

a set, maybe. 2 pair.. noplus. a set in this spot would be better off to let action back to you so you re-raise. its perfect, think about it. small stack goes all in. he flats cuz its a short raise. nothing too suspicious. and now action back on you. he knows you have the option to re-pop. and by just flat calling, it looks weaker. maybe two overs on a FD. etc...the fact that he raised, makes it look like iscolation and makes me auto think medium overpair

so, being in the case of it playing out how u expected, with your bet sizing, and suppose he does raise, over the $105/$110 bet u would have made on the flop....would you call/fold/reraise in that spot?....btw, is there a reason you keep misspelling isolation? or are u doing it on purpose and referring to some poker lingo that im not aware of?

[Royal_Tour 0]

so, being in the case of it playing out how u expected, with your bet sizing, and suppose he does raise, over the $105/$110 bet u would have made on the flop....would you call/fold/reraise in that spot?....btw, is there a reason you keep misspelling isolation? or are u doing it on purpose and referring to some poker lingo that im not aware of?

I kept thinkking there was a "c" in it for some reason, and even when the red underline would show, i'd just ignore it. so no.. no reason, i'm just stupid is all.but when it comes to poker, i'm slightly more educated. If you bet 110, and shorty goes all in for 85. and then villain decides to raise. He has to raise to 220 or more. If he did raise, I'd think he would go to about 260.if thats the case, i'd fold. because the only hand i see him doing that with, that you beat is 10,10 or J,J. everything else that would make that play has you crushed

[rrumsey 0]

i would have tried to bet exactly the shortys stack size. take your time and ask him to count it out before you stick him in to make sure the BB gets the message to fold to you. If he really does have us nailed, well he luckboxed a monster pot then.

[shynepo3 0]

this is all great great advice...but i keep thinking, even had i bet sized properly pre and on the flop, i still would have been facing a big re-raise from the BB. the way he played through out the session, he didnt seem to be observant (i didnt peg him to be a good/decent player - although, maybe im even worse, lol)...so i figured, regardless, he would still look at my bet, regardless of size, as a c-bet, and not for a big overpair...i guess we'll never know....a guy at the table said it's actually good that i could fold in that spot, on smoke break.....he said most of the fish at the table never could...then again, i always have the feeling they think i'm the fish - cause i'm new - , and they're just talkin @#$@ to keep me there..lol...which may be true...

[Royal_Tour 0]

this is all great great advice...but i keep thinking, even had i bet sized properly pre and on the flop, i still would have been facing a big re-raise from the BB. the way he played through out the session, he didnt seem to be observant (i didnt peg him to be a good/decent player - although, maybe im even worse, lol)...so i figured, regardless, he would still look at my bet, regardless of size, as a c-bet, and not for a big overpair...i guess we'll never know....a guy at the table said it's actually good that i could fold in that spot, on smoke break.....he said most of the fish at the table never could...then again, i always have the feeling they think i'm the fish - cause i'm new - , and they're just talkin @#$@ to keep me there..lol...which may be true...

You have to think from "donkey through to good player". ( which is impossible for donkeys to do, since they're not good players)the idea is that thinking on multiple levels, it doesnt matter if you're playing donkeys, you'll still understand where you're at in the hand.I didnt even need to know the type of player, i could tell by the setup and dynamics of the hand that This is an isolation play 95% of the time.

[mtdesmoines 3]

This is a 2-5 live game. , Min buy in is $200, max is $500. I'm in the cut-off with Q Q . I'll do my best to make this read-able..UTG + 1 - calls $5UTG + 2 - calls $5UTG + 3 - foldsCutoff - hero - raises to $30 (stack is $650)Button - calls (stack is $85 left)Small blind folds Big Blind calls (stack is $800)everyone else folds3 players FLOP ($102)2 3 6 Big blind checksCutoff - hero - bets $55Button goes all in for $85you mean Big Blind Cutoff raises $190Cutoff - hero?

BB isn't calling OOP to see 3 way pot with AA/KK with a shortie involved; he needs to have the pot bigger, so safe to say we're ahead PF. I think the $55 bet on the flop is awful -- unless you're trying to instigate a raise. It's ALSO bad because it closes your action if the button shoves -- you should bet half the button's stack, so that his (almost inevitable) shove reopens action to you and you can pull more $$$$$ in from the BB.I'm thinking about it, but I'm not folding to the BB's raise, and I probably min-reraise/call his shove. It would be scarier if he flatted, TBH.

[shynepo3 0]

You have to think from "donkey through to good player". ( which is impossible for donkeys to do, since they're not good players)the idea is that thinking on multiple levels, it doesnt matter if you're playing donkeys, you'll still understand where you're at in the hand.I didnt even need to know the type of player, i could tell by the setup and dynamics of the hand that This is an isolation play 95% of the time.

i guess i am a donkey, cause i'm trying to understand what u mean by that bolded above..lol

[DonkSlayer 1]

I'd make it $310 to go. If BB snapshoves I can find a fold, if not, I'm calling. Loose/bad players often overvalue their big hands too. The BB c/r is pretty sick here though...I think it's a close decision, especially if he can show up here with two pair.

[DonkSlayer 1]

And, F DONKS who messed with you about folding. This was close and you still have a full buyin at the table. Good players won't comment unless you ask them to.

[shynepo3 0]

And, F DONKS who messed with you about folding. This was close and you still have a full buyin at the table. Good players won't comment unless you ask them to.

yeah...i really think it was close, between 2 pair/set and overpair (under qq). even if it was isolation, i'm almost positive he would do the same thing would 2pair/set..

[Royal_Tour 0]

yeah...i really think it was close, between 2 pair/set and overpair (under qq). even if it was isolation, i'm almost positive he would do the same thing would 2pair/set..

Please see my response from previous, plus I added more in bold for you (to help)

a set is possible but 2 pair.. no (what 2 pair does he have?? does he call preflop out of position with 2,3 or 3,6?? very very doubtful)Now lets dissect a set.. a set in this spot would be better off to let action back to you so you re-raise. or at least stay in the hand.Your preflop action has told everyone you probably have a pocket pair or Ax+. If i have a set, I'd much rather you overvalue your hand and invest more money drawing to 2 outs.its perfect, think about it. small stack goes all in. he flats cuz its a short raise. nothing too suspicious. and now action back on you. he knows you have the option to re-pop. and by just flat calling, it looks weaker. maybe two overs on a FD. etc...

[shynepo3 0]

yeah, no that i re-read, you're right....overpair isolation seems the most likely holding...

[Royal_Tour 0]

yeah, no that i re-read, you're right....overpair isolation seems the most likely holding...

it would be nice if the online superstars who all came back to fcp for the other thread would post in this one.shynepo can use reassurance on the advice

[SwolyswoND 1]

How was BB allowed to raise when the shorty's "all-in" was not a legal raise, since it was not 2x the amount of Hero's bet on the flop? Seems like the right action, rules-wise, should have been that the shorty shove froze the action and BB could call, but not re-raise.

[mtdesmoines 3]

How was BB allowed to raise when the shorty's "all-in" was not a legal raise, since it was not 2x the amount of Hero's bet on the flop? Seems like the right action, rules-wise, should have been that the shorty shove froze the action and BB could call, but not re-raise.

He hadn't had any action yet. He can do whatever he wants.

[Royal_Tour 0]

How was BB allowed to raise when the shorty's "all-in" was not a legal raise, since it was not 2x the amount of Hero's bet on the flop? Seems like the right action, rules-wise, should have been that the shorty shove froze the action and BB could call, but not re-raise.

most places implement the 50% rule. which is from LHE. it means if someone bet 60 and the next raise is an all in. It has to be 50% the original bet or more to re-open the betting.So if the bet is 60, the all in would be 90. 30 is 50%.in the case of the OP. it was 55. then all in 85. thats 30 more. thats over 50% the original bet,

[FARGOpokerND 22]

*EDIT* not worth my time.

[shynepo3 0]

the button's all-in was considered a "short" raise, as per the rules in the game i was playing, and therefore, when it gets back to me, and had the BB not re-raised, i would only be allowed to call....they said it has to be at least double the bet to be considered a raise...