jmbreslin 0 Posted January 10, 2010 Share Posted January 10, 2010 Don't bother with speculative hands because the implied odds aren't there. I played a bunch tonight for the first time and my approach was to start very, very tight, and just basically shove any strong hand. There's no small ball poker in these, and very little postflop poker in general. If I get really short I'm looking to shove any hand with showdown value. They're actually pretty good practice for the late stages of STTs (and even MTTs) if shortstack play is something you need to work on.I played 7, busting out in 4 and finishing 1st, 2nd, and 3rd in the other 3.*Edit: A rake of 13% is absolutely ludicrous for this type of SnG (at the $1.50 level). But I can see the $3.50 ones being a good potential roll builder with a rake of only 8.5%. That beats the hell out of the 13% for the $3.40 turbos on Stars and the 12.5% for the regular $2.25 turbos on Tilt. Link to post Share on other sites
Acekob 0 Posted January 10, 2010 Share Posted January 10, 2010 PokerStars Game #37945869777: Tournament #230698601, $6.00+$0.50 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2010/01/10 11:19:48 ETTable '230698601 3' 9-max Seat #1 is the buttonSeat 1: patleafs (1770 in chips) Seat 2: swifty san (1210 in chips) Seat 3: Dayton_u (1310 in chips) Seat 4: DIKDIM7 (1635 in chips) Seat 5: brosetcar (1470 in chips) Seat 6: RamonBelmar (1260 in chips) Seat 7: james norris (1465 in chips) Seat 8: Acekob (1455 in chips) Seat 9: paugie (1925 in chips) swifty san: posts small blind 15Dayton_u: posts big blind 30*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to Acekob [Ac As]DIKDIM7: calls 30brosetcar: folds RamonBelmar: raises 120 to 150james norris: folds Acekob: raises 360 to 510paugie: folds patleafs: folds swifty san: folds Dayton_u: folds DIKDIM7: folds RamonBelmar: calls 360*** FLOP *** [2c 3h Jd]RamonBelmar: checks Acekob:Do I check back here inviting him to fire the turn?PokerStars Game #37946347641: Tournament #230700907, $6.00+$0.50 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2010/01/10 11:30:01 ETTable '230700907 2' 9-max Seat #2 is the buttonSeat 1: WombatUK (890 in chips) Seat 2: ricard38 (3125 in chips) Seat 4: jtn_nolimit (1100 in chips) Seat 5: Acekob (1470 in chips) Seat 6: MainMan21 (1310 in chips) Seat 8: Snifner (2923 in chips) Seat 9: Rob Stranger (1952 in chips) jtn_nolimit: posts small blind 25Acekob: posts big blind 50*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to Acekob [Ks Ac]MainMan21: folds Snifner: calls 50Rob Stranger: raises 200 to 250WombatUK: folds ricard38: folds jtn_nolimit: folds Acekob: raises 1220 to 1470 and is all-ingubelube is connected Snifner: folds Rob Stranger: calls 1220*** FLOP *** [3h 4c 8h]*** TURN *** [3h 4c 8h] [6d]*** RIVER *** [3h 4c 8h 6d] [3d]*** SHOW DOWN ***Acekob: shows [Ks Ac] (a pair of Threes)Rob Stranger: shows [9h 9c] (two pair, Nines and Threes)Rob Stranger collected 3015 from pot*** SUMMARY ***Total pot 3015 | Rake 0 Board [3h 4c 8h 6d 3d]Seat 1: WombatUK folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 2: ricard38 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 4: jtn_nolimit (small blind) folded before FlopSeat 5: Acekob (big blind) showed [Ks Ac] and lost with a pair of ThreesSeat 6: MainMan21 folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 8: Snifner folded before FlopSeat 9: Rob Stranger showed [9h 9c] and won (3015) with two pair, Nines and ThreesI am finding myself wondering about certain spots similar to this one, especially during the first two levels.When do you start playing AK as the nuts pf? Can it be better to flat here and look for a pair on the flop, or do we get enough action from AQ to make this a valuable shove? (Even though this shove probably was good, I'd like some opinions on it if this was the 10/20 or 15/30 level) Link to post Share on other sites
Ben_G 0 Posted January 10, 2010 Share Posted January 10, 2010 PokerStars Game #37945869777: Tournament #230698601, $6.00+$0.50 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2010/01/10 11:19:48 ETTable '230698601 3' 9-max Seat #1 is the buttonSeat 1: patleafs (1770 in chips) Seat 2: swifty san (1210 in chips) Seat 3: Dayton_u (1310 in chips) Seat 4: DIKDIM7 (1635 in chips) Seat 5: brosetcar (1470 in chips) Seat 6: RamonBelmar (1260 in chips) Seat 7: james norris (1465 in chips) Seat 8: Acekob (1455 in chips) Seat 9: paugie (1925 in chips) swifty san: posts small blind 15Dayton_u: posts big blind 30*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to Acekob [Ac As]DIKDIM7: calls 30brosetcar: folds RamonBelmar: raises 120 to 150james norris: folds Acekob: raises 360 to 510paugie: folds patleafs: folds swifty san: folds Dayton_u: folds DIKDIM7: folds RamonBelmar: calls 360*** FLOP *** [2c 3h Jd]RamonBelmar: checks Acekob:Do I check back here inviting him to fire the turn?I probably shove there is enough in the pot and he has already commited almost half his chips...... i dont give him a chance to hit a set or catch a chance at some kind of draw on the turn. Link to post Share on other sites
outsider13 0 Posted January 10, 2010 Share Posted January 10, 2010 What should we/I be opening with differently than a regular 9 man SNG (assuming it's still very early in the trny)? Or is there any difference?First off, there really won't be a spot that you will open raise, just shove. As for the start, from EP I'm shoving probably TT+, AQ+, MP is 77+ AJ+, CO and button any 55+ A9+ KQ KJ, SB quite wide, probably top 25%. It's something like that anyways.Once you play a lot of them, you realize the steals from people are VERY wide (as they should be). It's really the only way to stay alive, because after like 8-9 minutes, there are a lot of 2-3bb stacks. You'll find yourself calling shoves with K high often. It's pretty interesting to run a lot of the hands through sngpt because it's amazing what you have to call with when you know guys are shoving their entire range in spots.If somebody was to consider grinding these, I would say that 100 buyins is a must. I would go on crazy roller coaster rides in them. When you run bad in these, you run bad. Breaking even is not so bad if you have rakeback. If you 9 table them, you can play a hell of a lot of them. The longest one I've ever played is 18 minutes with the average taking like 12-13 minutes. Link to post Share on other sites
outsider13 0 Posted January 10, 2010 Share Posted January 10, 2010 PokerStars Game #37945869777: Tournament #230698601, $6.00+$0.50 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2010/01/10 11:19:48 ETTable '230698601 3' 9-max Seat #1 is the buttonSeat 1: patleafs (1770 in chips) Seat 2: swifty san (1210 in chips) Seat 3: Dayton_u (1310 in chips) Seat 4: DIKDIM7 (1635 in chips) Seat 5: brosetcar (1470 in chips) Seat 6: RamonBelmar (1260 in chips) Seat 7: james norris (1465 in chips) Seat 8: Acekob (1455 in chips) Seat 9: paugie (1925 in chips) swifty san: posts small blind 15Dayton_u: posts big blind 30*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to Acekob [Ac As]DIKDIM7: calls 30brosetcar: folds RamonBelmar: raises 120 to 150james norris: folds Acekob: raises 360 to 510paugie: folds patleafs: folds swifty san: folds Dayton_u: folds DIKDIM7: folds RamonBelmar: calls 360*** FLOP *** [2c 3h Jd]RamonBelmar: checks Acekob:Do I check back here inviting him to fire the turn?PokerStars Game #37946347641: Tournament #230700907, $6.00+$0.50 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2010/01/10 11:30:01 ETTable '230700907 2' 9-max Seat #2 is the buttonSeat 1: WombatUK (890 in chips) Seat 2: ricard38 (3125 in chips) Seat 4: jtn_nolimit (1100 in chips) Seat 5: Acekob (1470 in chips) Seat 6: MainMan21 (1310 in chips) Seat 8: Snifner (2923 in chips) Seat 9: Rob Stranger (1952 in chips) jtn_nolimit: posts small blind 25Acekob: posts big blind 50*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to Acekob [Ks Ac]MainMan21: folds Snifner: calls 50Rob Stranger: raises 200 to 250WombatUK: folds ricard38: folds jtn_nolimit: folds Acekob: raises 1220 to 1470 and is all-ingubelube is connected Snifner: folds Rob Stranger: calls 1220*** FLOP *** [3h 4c 8h]*** TURN *** [3h 4c 8h] [6d]*** RIVER *** [3h 4c 8h 6d] [3d]*** SHOW DOWN ***Acekob: shows [Ks Ac] (a pair of Threes)Rob Stranger: shows [9h 9c] (two pair, Nines and Threes)Rob Stranger collected 3015 from pot*** SUMMARY ***Total pot 3015 | Rake 0 Board [3h 4c 8h 6d 3d]Seat 1: WombatUK folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 2: ricard38 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 4: jtn_nolimit (small blind) folded before FlopSeat 5: Acekob (big blind) showed [Ks Ac] and lost with a pair of ThreesSeat 6: MainMan21 folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 8: Snifner folded before FlopSeat 9: Rob Stranger showed [9h 9c] and won (3015) with two pair, Nines and ThreesI am finding myself wondering about certain spots similar to this one, especially during the first two levels.When do you start playing AK as the nuts pf? Can it be better to flat here and look for a pair on the flop, or do we get enough action from AQ to make this a valuable shove? (Even though this shove probably was good, I'd like some opinions on it if this was the 10/20 or 15/30 level)Hand 1 - Rather than checking, you can also bet something stupidly small to get him to spazz, like 200. I'd probably just shove seeing as I'd most likely have a ton of tables open and I like to keep thinking to a minimum Preflop though, my finding is that somebody who raises 5x to open is not folding if you shove. I'd just shove pre and you'd be surprised how often 88/AQish type hands call.Hand 2 - I always play AK like the nuts. When he raises like that, I would think you are actually ahead of his range and never crushed. I would say there is no harm in flatting in position to a standard raise, but being oop and the raise so big, I def play it the same. Link to post Share on other sites
jmbreslin 0 Posted January 10, 2010 Share Posted January 10, 2010 If somebody was to consider grinding these, I would say that 100 buyins is a must.Sounds like a challenge!I'm not sure the variance would be all that much worse than regular STTs. What these things do is really emphasize the skills needed to succeed in shortstack situations, such as late-stage STT situations. It's almost like fast-forwarding to the 75/150 blind levels in a STT, except that everyone is still in the game and the levels progress a bit faster. But I think players like us have a much bigger edge over the competition in these because of our knowledge of shortstack play.Anyway, I think I might try grinding these for a while and see what happens. I do have about 100 buyins for the $3.50 level in my FT account, so I'll probably goof around at the $1.50's for a bit to get a feel before moving up.One of the good things about these is that you can multitable them much easier than regular STTs because reads are basically irrelevant. It's just a cards and math game. Link to post Share on other sites
outsider13 0 Posted January 11, 2010 Share Posted January 11, 2010 Sounds like a challenge!I'm not sure the variance would be all that much worse than regular STTs. What these things do is really emphasize the skills needed to succeed in shortstack situations, such as late-stage STT situations. It's almost like fast-forwarding to the 75/150 blind levels in a STT, except that everyone is still in the game and the levels progress a bit faster. But I think players like us have a much bigger edge over the competition in these because of our knowledge of shortstack play.Anyway, I think I might try grinding these for a while and see what happens. I do have about 100 buyins for the $3.50 level in my FT account, so I'll probably goof around at the $1.50's for a bit to get a feel before moving up.One of the good things about these is that you can multitable them much easier than regular STTs because reads are basically irrelevant. It's just a cards and math game.Well, I can tell you that the variance is a lot higher. It would be like comparing a regular speed to a turbo. It would be the same difference. Lower the roi like 5 points but it should be offset by extra volume.You are right though. Most reads are out the window and it's mostly math. That's where a good thinking players loses part of their edge. Link to post Share on other sites
Init2WINitHI 0 Posted January 11, 2010 Share Posted January 11, 2010 Literally the second hand of a 2.20 180 man turbo no reads on anyone - no prior experience with anyone at the table:PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 2.2 Tournament, 10/20 Blinds (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comCO (t1500)Button (t1440)SB (t1440)Hero (BB) (t1500)UTG (t1860)UTG+1 (t1440)MP1 (t1500)MP2 (t1500)MP3 (t1320)Hero's M: 50.00Preflop: Hero is BB with Q , A :spade:UTG calls t20, UTG+1 calls t20, MP1 calls t20, MP2 calls t20, 1 fold, CO calls t20, Button calls t20, SB calls t10, Hero ??? Link to post Share on other sites
jmbreslin 0 Posted January 11, 2010 Share Posted January 11, 2010 LOL...and blech.You either check and play very cautiously postflop, or you put in a big raise to thin the field...and then end up playing a big pot OOP. Since this is a 180-person turbo, I probably opt for the move that has the best potential to accumulate chips. Raise to like 200 and go from there. Link to post Share on other sites
jmbreslin 0 Posted January 11, 2010 Share Posted January 11, 2010 should be offset by extra volume.Sheesh, you can really play a dizzying number of these in a short period of time. Great for a guy like me who has at most 2 hours to play in an evening. But at times it feels like I'm just continuously opening new tables. I'm 3-tabling and I've already completed 11 in less than 45 minutes, with 3 more currently running. Link to post Share on other sites
Init2WINitHI 0 Posted January 11, 2010 Share Posted January 11, 2010 LOL...and blech.You either check and play very cautiously postflop, or you put in a big raise to thin the field...and then end up playing a big pot OOP. Since this is a 180-person turbo, I probably opt for the move that has the best potential to accumulate chips. Raise to like 200 and go from there.That was my thought - only with so many callers I thought a bigger raise would get most ppl out and maybe get me heads up since I was oop. So what next:Hero bets t300[/color], 2 folds, MP1 calls t280, 2 folds, Button calls t280, 1 foldFlop: (t1000) 4 , 3 , 10 (3 players)Hero? Link to post Share on other sites
outsider13 0 Posted January 11, 2010 Share Posted January 11, 2010 That was my thought - only with so many callers I thought a bigger raise would get most ppl out and maybe get me heads up since I was oop. So what next:Hero bets t300[/color], 2 folds, MP1 calls t280, 2 folds, Button calls t280, 1 foldFlop: (t1000) 4 , 3 , 10 (3 players)Hero? Puke and c/f I guess. Fwiw, I probably would have checked preflop. You don't need to make a huge hand there and you aren't really protecting a monster 8 handed. It's better not to lose chips early than it is to gain. Link to post Share on other sites
jmbreslin 0 Posted January 11, 2010 Share Posted January 11, 2010 It's pretty interesting to run a lot of the hands through sngpt because it's amazing what you have to call with when you know guys are shoving their entire range in spots.How do you manipulate the parameters to run these hands through SNGPT?*Edit: Nevermind, I'm using SNGEGT instead of the SNGPT free trial. Link to post Share on other sites
jmbreslin 0 Posted January 11, 2010 Share Posted January 11, 2010 It's better not to lose chips early than it is to gain.In STTs yes, but in a 180-person turbo you need to build a stack early and keep building. Link to post Share on other sites
Ben_G 0 Posted January 11, 2010 Share Posted January 11, 2010 PokerStars Game #37979349836: Tournament #230915069, $1.00+$0.10 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level X (400/800) - 2010/01/10 22:49:50 ETTable '230915069 4' 9-max Seat #7 is the buttonSeat 1: blurred1 (10094 in chips) Seat 2: MadderCatter (5085 in chips) Seat 3: stef butcher (5950 in chips) Seat 4: WAPDEGO18 (11968 in chips) Seat 5: Bluecaliber (10440 in chips) Seat 7: mykalhenry (4905 in chips) Seat 8: Semprini89 (4895 in chips) Seat 9: ShadeS42 (14163 in chips) blurred1: posts the ante 50MadderCatter: posts the ante 50stef butcher: posts the ante 50WAPDEGO18: posts the ante 50Bluecaliber: posts the ante 50mykalhenry: posts the ante 50Semprini89: posts the ante 50ShadeS42: posts the ante 50Semprini89: posts small blind 400ShadeS42: posts big blind 800*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to blurred1 [3c 3h]blurred1:???????????????????? Link to post Share on other sites
Chet Chetterson 0 Posted January 11, 2010 Share Posted January 11, 2010 A shove is bad there Ben, I think it's a fold although you may be able to setmine depending on where the bubble was. Link to post Share on other sites
Ben_G 0 Posted January 11, 2010 Share Posted January 11, 2010 A shove is bad there Ben, I think it's a fold although you may be able to setmine depending on where the bubble was.Was a 45 man..... pretty new at these i found that as a tough spot. Link to post Share on other sites
Ben_G 0 Posted January 11, 2010 Share Posted January 11, 2010 PokerStars Game #37981409506: Tournament #230930784, $3.00+$0.25 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level IX (300/600) - 2010/01/11 0:05:45 ETTable '230930784 1' 9-max Seat #4 is the buttonSeat 2: Donkey10101 (4035 in chips) Seat 3: g.dickson (12170 in chips) Seat 4: blurred1 (1695 in chips) Seat 5: BradSwarbz.. (10485 in chips) Seat 7: pkppp (3780 in chips) Seat 8: 67Joe67 (485 in chips) Donkey10101: posts the ante 50g.dickson: posts the ante 50blurred1: posts the ante 50BradSwarbz..: posts the ante 50pkppp: posts the ante 5067Joe67: posts the ante 50BradSwarbz..: posts small blind 300pkppp: posts big blind 600*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to blurred1 [2c 2h]67Joe67: folds Donkey10101: folds g.dickson: folds blurred1:?????????????????? Link to post Share on other sites
outsider13 0 Posted January 11, 2010 Share Posted January 11, 2010 PokerStars Game #37981409506: Tournament #230930784, $3.00+$0.25 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level IX (300/600) - 2010/01/11 0:05:45 ETTable '230930784 1' 9-max Seat #4 is the buttonSeat 2: Donkey10101 (4035 in chips) Seat 3: g.dickson (12170 in chips) Seat 4: blurred1 (1695 in chips) Seat 5: BradSwarbz.. (10485 in chips) Seat 7: pkppp (3780 in chips) Seat 8: 67Joe67 (485 in chips) Donkey10101: posts the ante 50g.dickson: posts the ante 50blurred1: posts the ante 50BradSwarbz..: posts the ante 50pkppp: posts the ante 5067Joe67: posts the ante 50BradSwarbz..: posts small blind 300pkppp: posts big blind 600*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to blurred1 [2c 2h]67Joe67: folds Donkey10101: folds g.dickson: folds blurred1:??????????????????GL, win the race. Link to post Share on other sites
outsider13 0 Posted January 11, 2010 Share Posted January 11, 2010 PokerStars Game #37979349836: Tournament #230915069, $1.00+$0.10 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level X (400/800) - 2010/01/10 22:49:50 ETTable '230915069 4' 9-max Seat #7 is the buttonSeat 1: blurred1 (10094 in chips) Seat 2: MadderCatter (5085 in chips) Seat 3: stef butcher (5950 in chips) Seat 4: WAPDEGO18 (11968 in chips) Seat 5: Bluecaliber (10440 in chips) Seat 7: mykalhenry (4905 in chips) Seat 8: Semprini89 (4895 in chips) Seat 9: ShadeS42 (14163 in chips) blurred1: posts the ante 50MadderCatter: posts the ante 50stef butcher: posts the ante 50WAPDEGO18: posts the ante 50Bluecaliber: posts the ante 50mykalhenry: posts the ante 50Semprini89: posts the ante 50ShadeS42: posts the ante 50Semprini89: posts small blind 400ShadeS42: posts big blind 800*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to blurred1 [3c 3h]blurred1:????????????????????I hate folding pairs with your stack but this looks like a good spot to. Def not deep enough to setmine so it's shove/fold and I think we're too far oop here. Link to post Share on other sites
Ben_G 0 Posted January 11, 2010 Share Posted January 11, 2010 GL, win the race.Shoved luckboxed a set against a higher pp here Link to post Share on other sites
Ben_G 0 Posted January 11, 2010 Share Posted January 11, 2010 I hate folding pairs with your stack but this looks like a good spot to. Def not deep enough to setmine so it's shove/fold and I think we're too far oop here.Ya i pushed and in retrospect with that stack probably shoulda let it go in early position. Bigger stack had 10 10 and i bubbled Link to post Share on other sites
Init2WINitHI 0 Posted January 11, 2010 Share Posted January 11, 2010 Not much but on my way to meeting my 2010 goals PokerStars Tournament #230919895, No Limit Hold'emBuy-In: $1.00/$0.10 USD90 playersTotal Prize Pool: $90.00 USD Tournament started 2010/01/10 19:31:19 PT [2010/01/10 22:31:19 ET]Dear InIt2WINitHI,You finished the tournament in 1st place. A USD 24.82 award has been credited to your Real Money account.You earned 104.06 tournament leader points in this tournament. For information about our tournament leader board, see our web site at http://www.pokerstars.com/poker/tournaments/leader-board/Congratulations!Thank you for participating.Ya gotta start somewhere! Link to post Share on other sites
Init2WINitHI 0 Posted January 11, 2010 Share Posted January 11, 2010 I folded this here - Villans stats at this point were vpip43/pr20/af 70 over 65 handsTable '230919895 10' 9-max Seat #8 is the buttonSeat 7: 3000gtman (59062 in chips)Seat 8: InIt2WINitHI (75938 in chips)3000gtman: posts the ante 300InIt2WINitHI: posts the ante 300InIt2WINitHI: posts small blind 12503000gtman: posts big blind 2500*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to InIt2WINitHI [Ts Qs]InIt2WINitHI: raises 2500 to 50003000gtman: raises 53762 to 58762 and is all-inInIt2WINitHI: foldsUncalled bet (53762) returned to 3000gtman3000gtman collected 10600 from pot*** SUMMARY ***Total pot 10600 | Rake 0Seat 7: 3000gtman (big blind) collected (10600)Seat 8: InIt2WINitHI (button) (small blind) folded before FlopNot sure if this is a fold here. Thoughts are appreciated. Link to post Share on other sites
outsider13 0 Posted January 11, 2010 Share Posted January 11, 2010 HU is really hard to effectively give criticism. You're still pretty deep here though so there's definitely nothing wrong with folding. I think calling off would be fairly spewy. So other than the raise size (I have no issues with it, I just don't often minraise), I play it the same.Congrats on the win!! Link to post Share on other sites
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