400bb Deep Play

[rrumsey 0]

after thinking about this hand for a while, i hate leading this flop, we end up playing the hand face up, unless we are planning to turn our hand into a bluff and 4 bet. check raise seems ok, check call and see a blank turn almost seems best after thinking about it. Frankly it is hard to get around the fact a huge preflop raise and a lead in looks a lot like a big pair and i just see us getting floated and having the hand taken away on bad turns a tooonnn of the time here imo

[nomad_monad 0]

check-call flop, donk-fold a safe turn.it picks off value from his entire range on the flop. betting the turn then takes it down the majority of the time. any decent player can raise you on the flop with total air and bomb a ton of turn cards and expect to get a lot of folds, especially deep. but the vast majority of players don't have the stones to raise you on the turn without good equity, so when you do get raised there you can pitch it because you're really hurting against his overall range. plus when you donk the turn, you pretty much force villain into a stack decision, whereas when you lead the flop, you can only do this if you bet-3B, which is terribad for obvious reasons. yes checking flop risks giving away free cards, but when so many of the hands you're trying to price out with a flop bet - not to mention a ton of air hands - are going to raise that flop and force you to fold or make a terrible decision on the turn, hand protection is a pretty marginal consideration. clearly a spot where you'd much rather protect your stack than your hand.BTW - some people have hated on your preflop raise size but I like it a lot. Villain likely already knows that you're 3betting the fish purely for value, so you really don't give away additional info. Meanwhile you are maxing value against the fish (obvious) while cutting down villain's positional advantage (a bit less obvious) when he decides to flat behind you.

[Royal_Tour 0]

check-call flop, donk-fold a safe turn.it picks off value from his entire range on the flop. betting the turn then takes it down the majority of the time. any decent player can raise you on the flop with total air and bomb a ton of turn cards and expect to get a lot of folds, especially deep. but the vast majority of players don't have the stones to raise you on the turn without good equity, so when you do get raised there you can pitch it because you're really hurting against his overall range. plus when you donk the turn, you pretty much force villain into a stack decision, whereas when you lead the flop, you can only do this if you bet-3B, which is terribad for obvious reasons. yes checking flop risks giving away free cards, but when so many of the hands you're trying to price out with a flop bet - not to mention a ton of air hands - are going to raise that flop and force you to fold or make a terrible decision on the turn, hand protection is a pretty marginal consideration. clearly a spot where you'd much rather protect your stack than your hand.

I do sorta agree on the check/call flop- bet/fold-turn line, for limited "pot control" if you can call it that. However, you mention that the vast majority of players don't have the stones to raise you on the turn without good equity where as IMO - this same principle can be applied to the flop. Whether our hand is transparent as an Overpair or not, Villain still needs to call a big bet on the flop to float us, or raise our flop bet by risking a lot.Many villains wont be able to do this if they put us on an overpair because firstly, they need to think their FE is going to be high enough. Floating this flop with total air requires stones.I think we're giving button too much credit, by assuming he (or anyone in his situation) will simply float us, or raise us.another problem with a check/call then lead out is that we could potentially face a turn call and have no added info on where we stand, and end up having to check/call river. - (I say this because villain flatting our turn would come across as weak, and thus... well this would be a whole other issue to discuss)

[nomad_monad 0]

Bet-fold is OK, I just think it is less EV than c-c, lead turn.The difference for villain in terms of how he can pressure us is quite significant if we give him the option of bluffing on the flop instead of the turn.- He can raise flop with as little as overcards or gutter draws, and then checkback turn cards he can't rep, or decide to bomb certain turn cards he can represent really well. If we make him do his thing on a safe turn, however, we've destroyed a lot of the equity he has with a decent portion of his bluffing range. The fact that he has position and a lot of options over two streets requires less stones to bluff flop and follow through, as compared to bluffing the turn with less equity, fewer backup options, and less scare cards possible over 1 street instead of 2.- Leading flop, with SPRs as they are, makes it such that he gets to decide when you're going to cross the commitment threshold. C-C'ing flop and then leading turn forces him to make the commitment decision. In the former, you don't find out if you're crushed until it's too late, and in the latter, he is forced to tell you you're in bad shape before you have to commit.I think actually the possibility of getting a turn call, assuming a turn blank, is a good thing. It means the turnbet isn't purely a protection/take-it-down bet. There's the chance of getting called by TT/JJ, which is gravy, although he should probably fold these hands. I really don't think you're going to get flatted by much else, because you're forcing him into a raise-fold spot with the vast majority of his range. Most of the time what's going to happen here is that you check, he bets his entire range thinking that you're just C'F'ing, then you call, then you lead a turn, and he snapfolds most of his range. And you're happy because you've gotten $ from all his air that you would've missed out on by leading, avoided getting bluffed by some of it, and fold the times when raised knowing you were probably in bad shape against his range.

[Royal_Tour 0]

And you're happy because you've gotten $ from all his air that you would've missed out on by leading, avoided getting bluffed by some of it, and fold the times when raised knowing you were probably in bad shape against his range.

I fully agree.Biggest downside is the amount of cards we need to dodge. and we still wont know where we are.So, just to dive further, do we still fire turn regardless of what falls?ex. how is it played if an 8 peels, or a big heart? We're bet/folding to any raise? Also, are we leading turn with a large bet? 3/4pot?the reason i ask is because there are a ton of cards that fall on the turn that could give him numerous more outs... more so that he sticks around to the river with postion.

[nomad_monad 0]

So, just to dive further, do we still fire turn regardless of what falls?

C/F most draw-completing turns. It's going to happen about 1/3 of the time, and yeah sometimes you're going to fold the best hand. But here are a few things:- If villain's bluffing frequency with air on the flop is even close to that, it's pretty much a wash.- You're not going to get double-barreled by air on a draw hitting turn as often as you might think. Once you c-c the flop, your perceived range changes to include more draws that didn't want to get raised off on the flop. So villain can't just barrel willy nilly. - The cost of being bluffed off on the turn is defrayed by the times you pick up extra money from total air on the flop. You do risk surrendering a bigger pot to air that may have folded the flop, but for that to be a greater loss, villain has to (1) bluff the flop at a low frequency if we lead and (2) double-barrel shitty turns with a high frequency if we check to him. Since this combination involves somewhat of a contradiction in villain's aggressiveness level, you're not going to come across this behavior too often.

[rrumsey 0]

C/F most draw-completing turns. It's going to happen about 1/3 of the time, and yeah sometimes you're going to fold the best hand. But here are a few things:- If villain's bluffing frequency with air on the flop is even close to that, it's pretty much a wash.- You're not going to get double-barreled by air on a draw hitting turn as often as you might think. Once you c-c the flop, your perceived range changes to include more draws that didn't want to get raised off on the flop. So villain can't just barrel willy nilly. - The cost of being bluffed off on the turn is defrayed by the times you pick up extra money from total air on the flop. You do risk surrendering a bigger pot to air that may have folded the flop, but for that to be a greater loss, villain has to (1) bluff the flop at a low frequency if we lead and (2) double-barrel shitty turns with a high frequency if we check to him. Since this combination involves somewhat of a contradiction in villain's aggressiveness level, you're not going to come across this behavior too often.

very nice

[outsider13 0]

rail me rumsey182 on ftp final table #128246124 Dec 28 17:30 Hold'em NL $3 + $0.30

glgl!

[Nashtak 0]

glgl!

lmao