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The ones like Dawkins that act as if they know for sure their isn't a God, don't have suffecient evidence to support their claims. Actually no, LMD may try and argue that, but The Catholic Church does not teach any of that. In fact John Paul II claimed faith and reason were two wings of the same bird. The way you can learn about an artist by studying his art, you can learn about God through his creations.
First things first. Dawkins doesn't have evidence to support the absence of a God, just the evidence to support that evolution is indeed a fact and that the creationists are simply lying baffling fools. This brings us back to my original question though, if you believe he created the universe then WHY did he do it? So far no one has come up with any reasonable idea that isn't comprised of faulty logic or pure guess work and innuendo pulled out of thin air. So we only are left to deal with facts, evolution is what got us here. There is no evidence of an ultimate creator. Everything else is pure fantasy.Second, can you give me an example of one of his creations? Just one?
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in case you're right i have that covered. i plan to die by flying a spaceship into a black hole so if zeus exists i can gain his forgiveness by making apollo and dionysus stop fighting and merge their ideals.
This idea has legs.
it also has the intelligent purple snorkwillers in andromeda as its center. does god favor us over them?
yes.
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It's almost hard to believe that religious leaders refused to accept that the Earth isn't at the center of the solar system and the universe itself.Man are we an arrogant species. Ridiculous.
So you agree with Copernicus then?
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in case you're right i have that covered. i plan to die by flying a spaceship into a black hole so if zeus exists i can gain his forgiveness by making apollo and dionysus stop fighting and merge their ideals.
Zounds, that is a fairly reliable plan.
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Thinking about this a little more I'm not buying this and hope you can come up with something better. I don't think starving children are buying the "show love" and he can't be that ego-maniacal to need our love back if he is smart enough to have created a universe.Maybe he just made us for fun like the above ant farm and then got a new toy and forgot about us?
This is a theological debate that has been going on for centuries.The standard answer would be that this isn't the way it was supposed to be. God made man perfect, but in order for love to be real, it must be freely given. If there was no way to sin, then being sin-free would be meaningless, so a single source for the option to sin was introduced, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.Adam sinned, he introduced a decaying feature into our existence and since then bad things happen.So blaming the existence of bad things on God as examples of His being impotent to help, or uncaring is an interpretation of the events that doesn't fit. That is more just making God to be a big one of us.Take a drunk driver who runs into another car and kills the driver. What would you have God do? Step in every time a guy drives drunk and make sure he gets home safe? Swerve the car and kill the drunk driver? Suspend the laws of physics every time someone drinks?We are responsible for our actions, and if that ends up hurting someone else, why is it God's fault? And as far as people who are innocent in their lives and still suffering, the actions of their father or father's father probably are the reason for the poverty in their lives. Would you have God make sure every child is born in Beverly Hills?It's easy to argue that if God were really loving than He would make life wonderful for everyone, but it really is simplistic. Actions have consequences. Removing all consequences from our actions isn't he answer, it's our actions that are to blame. And our actions that are based in sinful selfishness result in bad things often, so blaming God for letting us bear the brunt of our actions or others around us, isn't really rational.This really all comes from being unable to allow for the reality that God's ways aren't our ways. Our minds can not follow the reasons God has for things. I've seen him step in for things so little I wouldn't imagine God would care one way or the other, and I've seen Him allow things that hurt me and I questioned "Why". To apply human emotions and actions on God is just a human attempt at explaining a non-human reality.Why did God want to love someone? I don't know why, I just know He said He did.Why did God not wipe out and start over when Eve sinned? I don't know why, I just know He did.Why doesn't God show Himself in big signs across the universe so everyone would believe and go to heaven? I don't know, but I do know that Satan was in God's very presence and rejected Him, so free will is a powerful thing.And I also know that if God did make us for fun and He is a Being with a cruel intention, then we still are stuck having to answer to Him, being self-righteous when standing before a cruel God is just as ineffective as being self-righteous when standing before a Just God.
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First things first. Dawkins doesn't have evidence to support the absence of a God, just the evidence to support that evolution is indeed a fact and that the creationists are simply lying baffling fools. This brings us back to my original question though, if you believe he created the universe then WHY did he do it? So far no one has come up with any reasonable idea that isn't comprised of faulty logic or pure guess work and innuendo pulled out of thin air. So we only are left to deal with facts, evolution is what got us here. There is no evidence of an ultimate creator. Everything else is pure fantasy.
You are trying to argue that since you cannot conceive of a reason God had for doing what God did, then He couldn't have done it and that means that a different explanation is therefore true.You think if that is a reasonable conclusion that makes sense?
Second, can you give me an example of one of his creations? Just one?
The moon? Quarks? Fractions? Gravity? Morality?There's 5, although I could have just said ..every noun in existence and covered all my bases.
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And as far as people who are innocent in their lives and still suffering, the actions of their father or father's father probably are the reason for the poverty in their lives. Would you have God make sure every child is born in Beverly Hills?It's easy to argue that if God were really loving than He would make life wonderful for everyone, but it really is simplistic. Actions have consequences. Removing all consequences from our actions isn't he answer, it's our actions that are to blame. And our actions that are based in sinful selfishness result in bad things often, so blaming God for letting us bear the brunt of our actions or others around us, isn't really rational.
what about innocents suffering from birth defects, disease, and catastrophic natural disasters? do they also have the sins of their fathers to blame? if the US ever votes in gay marriage i should probably move out of the tsunami zone i'm currently living in.
This really all comes from being unable to allow for the reality that God's ways aren't our ways. Our minds can not follow the reasons God has for things.
cult speak
Why doesn't God show Himself in big signs across the universe so everyone would believe and go to heaven? I don't know, but I do know that Satan was in God's very presence and rejected Him, so free will is a powerful thing.
incorrect analogy. obviously satan didn't reject his existenceand belief in the objective existence of god or anything else is by definition not a matter of free will in the first place, unless it's a matter of some sort of willful brainwashing. genuine belief can only be something one is compelled to accept based on evidence, with no real choice in the matter.
And I also know that if God did make us for fun and He is a Being with a cruel intention, then we still are stuck having to answer to Him, being self-righteous when standing before a cruel God is just as ineffective as being self-righteous as standing before a Just God.
that's one of the more twistedly creative ways of stating pascal's wager i've ever heard. good job there.
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what about innocents suffering from birth defects, disease, and catastrophic natural disasters? do they also have the sins of their fathers to blame? if the US ever votes in gay marriage i should probably move out of the tsunami zone i'm currently living in.cult speakincorrect analogy. obviously satan didn't reject his existenceand belief in the objective existence of god or anything else is by definition not a matter of free will in the first place, unless it's a matter of some sort of willful brainwashing. genuine belief is something one is compelled to accept with no real choice in the matter. that's one of the more twistedly creative ways of stating pascal's wager i've ever heard. good job there.
Crow, your logic is so out of whack that you probably believe yourself.That's too bad.
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where? enlighten me. don't be lazy :club:
This really all comes from being unable to allow for the reality that God's ways aren't our ways. Our minds can not follow the reasons God has for things.
cult speak
Maybe the cult of logic.Of course it is well within your rights to explain how you can argue that you are completely capable of understanding the mind of the Creator of the universe, who exists outside of time and space and can see eternity for what it is.Of course you can understand Him, you can probably even speak for Him, you do for everyone else. The rest of us must face the tragic reality that we don't know everything, including the inner workings of the motivations of God.Or you can try to make the extremely weak case that all cults try to argue that everything that is unexplainable just say 'we can't know God's mind', but of course the problem with your logic is that this doesn't make any point whatsoever. Who cares if every group of people in the entire history of the world says something, it's truthfulness isn't dependent on the numbers of people saying it or not saying it.The fact you think your cute little catch phrase answers it shows that either:A. You are completely incapable of following a simple thought.B. you are capable but refuse to.C. You are capable and choose to lie about it because you are a dishonest windbag.Take your pick Seeeeeemore
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where? enlighten me. don't be lazy :club:
The rest of your posts is not relevant enough to discuss. I could go into why you once again got the issue wrong with regards to Satan denying God not being the same thing as Satan arguing that God didn't exist. The fact I have to explain why you are wrong is completely flabbergasting. I have found you to be completely lacking in the ability to converse with intelligently and/or honestly, so I will allow you your God given right to be wrong and ignore you.However should you in the future find yourself willing to actually discuss things instead of trolling like a clown, I will be happy to exercise my God given right to be right with you
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The rest of your posts is not relevant enough to discuss. I could go into why you once again got the issue wrong with regards to Satan denying God not being the same thing as Satan arguing that God didn't exist. The fact I have to explain why you are wrong is completely flabbergasting. I have found you to be completely lacking in the ability to converse with intelligently and/or honestly, so I will allow you your God given right to be wrong and ignore you.However should you in the future find yourself willing to actually discuss things instead of trolling like a clown, I will be happy to exercise my God given right to be right with you
good - so far this thread was lacking in the usual unprovoked personal attacks on me meant to distract from your inability to intellectually support your own statements. glad to see you trying to bat 1.000.
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Of course it is well within your rights to explain how you can argue that you are completely capable of understanding the mind of the Creator of the universe, who exists outside of time and space and can see eternity for what it is.Of course you can understand Him, you can probably even speak for Him, you do for everyone else. The rest of us must face the tragic reality that we don't know everything, including the inner workings of the motivations of God.
straw man. obviously i'm just assessing evidence as to whether there is any reason to think a concerned creator exists or not, not claiming to understand the mind of god.you are the one making the claim in this thread - that god created the universe for us so we could love him. so far you have done nothing to support that claim.
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good - so far this thread was lacking in the usual unprovoked personal attack on me meant to distract from your inability to intellectually support your own statements. glad to see you trying to bat 1.000.
Only an atheist could take being caught on being arrogantly dismissive in their logically insecure answers and turn themselves into victims from it.I thought it was only Christians obsessed with the notion of being on the cross all the time.
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This is a theological debate that has been going on for centuries.The standard answer would be that this isn't the way it was supposed to be. God made man perfect, but in order for love to be real, it must be freely given. If there was no way to sin, then being sin-free would be meaningless, so a single source for the option to sin was introduced, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.Adam sinned, he introduced a decaying feature into our existence and since then bad things happen.So blaming the existence of bad things on God as examples of His being impotent to help, or uncaring is an interpretation of the events that doesn't fit. That is more just making God to be a big one of us.Take a drunk driver who runs into another car and kills the driver. What would you have God do? Step in every time a guy drives drunk and make sure he gets home safe? Swerve the car and kill the drunk driver? Suspend the laws of physics every time someone drinks?We are responsible for our actions, and if that ends up hurting someone else, why is it God's fault? And as far as people who are innocent in their lives and still suffering, the actions of their father or father's father probably are the reason for the poverty in their lives. Would you have God make sure every child is born in Beverly Hills?It's easy to argue that if God were really loving than He would make life wonderful for everyone, but it really is simplistic. Actions have consequences. Removing all consequences from our actions isn't he answer, it's our actions that are to blame. And our actions that are based in sinful selfishness result in bad things often, so blaming God for letting us bear the brunt of our actions or others around us, isn't really rational.This really all comes from being unable to allow for the reality that God's ways aren't our ways. Our minds can not follow the reasons God has for things. I've seen him step in for things so little I wouldn't imagine God would care one way or the other, and I've seen Him allow things that hurt me and I questioned "Why". To apply human emotions and actions on God is just a human attempt at explaining a non-human reality.Why did God want to love someone? I don't know why, I just know He said He did.Why did God not wipe out and start over when Eve sinned? I don't know why, I just know He did.Why doesn't God show Himself in big signs across the universe so everyone would believe and go to heaven? I don't know, but I do know that Satan was in God's very presence and rejected Him, so free will is a powerful thing.And I also know that if God did make us for fun and He is a Being with a cruel intention, then we still are stuck having to answer to Him, being self-righteous when standing before a cruel God is just as ineffective as being self-righteous when standing before a Just God.
About the sin thing, I suppose this ruins the whole perfectness of heaven eh? About the Bev Hills thing, evolution explains why Beverly Hills doesn't contain all people just fine. That's just silly.It doesn't seem you are saying anything other than you don't know alot. Also Free will kinda ruins the whole God knows all doesn't it since you say he knows all and everything is pre-determined. If God knew he was going to reject Satan, then why go through the motions? You know, the whole notion of Satan is just absurd and I can't even discuss it seriously so I will try to avoid topics like that to remain civil.So finally you end up with admitting that you don't know why God made the universe, be it fun, cruelness, curiousity etc. This comes back to my original point. If their is no reasonable explanation for an ultimate creator, why even bother with the idea?
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straw man. obviously i'm just assessing evidence as to whether there is any reason to think a concerned creator exists or not, not claiming to understand the mind of god.you are the one making the claim in this thread - that god created the universe for us so we could love him. so far you have done nothing to support that claim.
cult speakAnd I was only answering a question, one that is pretty much the standard line for the last 2,000 years, but I could see why you've never heard it and think I am making a personal observation. After all, you show that you are mostly unread when it comes to all things Christian.
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Maybe the cult of logic.Of course it is well within your rights to explain how you can argue that you are completely capable of understanding the mind of the Creator of the universe, who exists outside of time and space and can see eternity for what it is.Of course you can understand Him, you can probably even speak for Him, you do for everyone else. The rest of us must face the tragic reality that we don't know everything, including the inner workings of the motivations of God.Or you can try to make the extremely weak case that all cults try to argue that everything that is unexplainable just say 'we can't know God's mind', but of course the problem with your logic is that this doesn't make any point whatsoever. Who cares if every group of people in the entire history of the world says something, it's truthfulness isn't dependent on the numbers of people saying it or not saying it.The fact you think your cute little catch phrase answers it shows that either:A. You are completely incapable of following a simple thought.B. you are capable but refuse to.C. You are capable and choose to lie about it because you are a dishonest windbag.Take your pick Seeeeeemore
We can't know god's mind? Hmm, he has a mind? Is it divided into two hemispheres like ours? Is it bigger or smaller? Oh which God? Currently there are a million that humans have laid claim to so which one? Maybe the God you are thinking of has a spirit mind of some sort. But you know that's probably mean of me to ask since you since you admit that you really don't know anything about him, why he created the universe or why he does what he does, amirite?
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About the sin thing, I suppose this ruins the whole perfectness of heaven eh?
why? Jesus said Heaven would be a different place, made just for us.
About the Bev Hills thing, evolution explains why Beverly Hills doesn't contain all people just fine. That's just silly.
I think evolution is completely silent as to why everyone is not born in Beverly Hills, Physics on the other hand...
It doesn't seem you are saying anything other than you don't know alot.
I just have to say these things to gain humble points for my rewards in heaven, you know I don't actually think this way...
Also Free will kinda ruins the whole God knows all doesn't it since you say he knows all and everything is pre-determined. If God knew he was going to reject Satan, then why go through the motions? You know, the whole notion of Satan is just absurd and I can't even discuss it seriously so I will try to avoid topics like that to remain civil.
Pre-destinationism isn't as clear cut as that, nor is it as logically flawed. Can you know that your child is going to get into trouble by playing with fire, does that mean you caused it? Or that you wanted it to happen? could you have had a reason for allowing it?
So finally you end up with admitting that you don't know why God made the universe, be it fun, cruelness, curiousity etc. This comes back to my original point. If their is no reasonable explanation for an ultimate creator, why even bother with the idea?
Randy, I think you are making a bad conclusion.It would be like me saying 'There is no reasonable explanation for your point, therefore it must not have been made.'You must first make the case that there must be a clear understanding of all of God's mind before He can exist. So far you have failed to do this.In fact you are the one claiming to know God's mind, since you are arguing that since we don't know what it is, then He must not have thought it.Is it possible that God made the universe and we don't know why?
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We can't know god's mind? Hmm, he has a mind? Is it divided into two hemispheres like ours? Is it bigger or smaller? Oh which God? Currently there are a million that humans have laid claim to so which one? Maybe the God you are thinking of has a spirit mind of some sort. But you know that's probably mean of me to ask since you since you admit that you really don't know anything about him, why he created the universe or why he does what he does, amirite?
We know a lot about Him, everything He told us about in His Bible, of that stuff I can answer much more authoritively.What was He thinking when he made the universe...yea, only someone like crow could be so arrogant as to pretend he knows what God was thinking then.
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And I was only answering a question
you were avoiding a question. obviously the question being asked was not why does god seem not to care, it was why should anyone think a caring god exists in the first place.statements like "we can't know the mind of god" are just excuses for belief used by every religion and cult. they are in no way a reason for belief.
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why? Jesus said Heaven would be a different place, made just for us.I think evolution is completely silent as to why everyone is not born in Beverly Hills, Physics on the other hand... I just have to say these things to gain humble points for my rewards in heaven, you know I don't actually think this way...Pre-destinationism isn't as clear cut as that, nor is it as logically flawed. Can you know that your child is going to get into trouble by playing with fire, does that mean you caused it? Or that you wanted it to happen? could you have had a reason for allowing it? Randy, I think you are making a bad conclusion.It would be like me saying 'There is no reasonable explanation for your point, therefore it must not have been made.'You must first make the case that there must be a clear understanding of all of God's mind before He can exist. So far you have failed to do this.In fact you are the one claiming to know God's mind, since you are arguing that since we don't know what it is, then He must not have thought it.Is it possible that God made the universe and we don't know why?
We know a lot about Him, everything He told us about in His Bible, of that stuff I can answer much more authoritively.What was He thinking when he made the universe...yea, only someone like crow could be so arrogant as to pretend he knows what God was thinking then.
I believe Crow just answered but I will as well. I am not so arrogant as to pretend there is a God in the first place, let alone what he was thinking. Their is no logical reason that we can come up with and you admit you don't have a clue what he was thinking so why are doing all the guessing? If you don't know what he was thinking why claim that he has a higher moral purpose for humankind?
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Is it possible that God made the universe and we don't know why?
Sure it's possible but there is no evidence of it anymore than Santa being real. I mean you really couldn't tell me anything about God could you? Or is it Gods? A race of Gods? Again, you don't know.
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Why do you all bother? I mean don't get me wrong, I enjoy reading about 50% of this board. I enjoy reading both sides of the arguments here and all that but sometimes I wonder what you all think you are doing.Usually people ask questions because they want to gain knowledge or try to understand someone else's opinions or views. I don't think that is what happens on this board. You have your believers and your non-believers and you all try to push each others buttons. All the arguments are circular and pretty much no different than the one before it. Clearly there are some who ride the middle and seem to pay attention to what each side is saying but for the most part it's like a big circle jerk in here. So...carry on

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Why do you all bother? I mean don't get me wrong, I enjoy reading about 50% of this board. I enjoy reading both sides of the arguments here and all that but sometimes I wonder what you all think you are doing.Usually people ask questions because they want to gain knowledge or try to understand someone else's opinions or views. I don't think that is what happens on this board. You have your believers and your non-believers and you all try to push each others buttons. All the arguments are circular and pretty much no different than the one before it. Clearly there are some who ride the middle and seem to pay attention to what each side is saying but for the most part it's like a big circle jerk in here. So...carry on
Well, since you insist I'll seque into where I was heading. Since we know evolution is a fact then I think it should be illegal to brainswash children in schools by teaching creationism. It can go in with the myths and fairy tale sections. The most important thing facing our children in the future is education and we should start by at least telling the truth to them about our planet. Maybe one day we one of them will grow up into a leader with enough balls and following to replace the idiots we now have.
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I mean don't get me wrong, I enjoy reading about 50% of this board. I enjoy reading both sides of the arguments here and all that but sometimes I wonder what you all think you are doing.Usually people ask questions because they want to gain knowledge or try to understand someone else's opinions or views.
And, to refine their own. Kind of like when you give a draft to someone else and hope they rip it up so you can make it better.
I don't think that is what happens on this board. You have your believers and your non-believers and you all try to push each others buttons. All the arguments are circular and pretty much no different than the one before it. Clearly there are some who ride the middle and seem to pay attention to what each side is saying but for the most part it's like a big circle jerk in here.
I don't get what you are saying. Do you have something against circle jerks?
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