DanielNegreanu 141 Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Let me make a point to all of you to help you understand the difference between past results and the current state of poker:What I did in 2004 has no bearing, and absolutely zero correlation to my NL hold'em tournament game today. At that time, I had a good run of cards, but most importantly, and this is going to sound arrogant, but it's true, the rest of the poker world hadn't caught up yet with how effective small is in deep stacked tournaments.Today, the majority of touring regulars play some form of small ball, which in a nutshell I'll describe as,"Making small investments to hit big, and making sure that when you are in a marginal spot, you keep the pot small. If you play a big pot, have the nuts, or close to it." Simple right? Well in 2004 no one was more committed to that then me, and it worked perfectly. I got so many "gifts" that year where people handed me there chips.Since then, the younger players have learned to adapt by realizing the truth: that the small ball style I played pre-flop is on the sloppy side with the goal of getting paid off big. So they adapted by taking advantage of the sloppy play pre-flop, but at the same time, they DON'T make the large donations when I hit.So where does that leave us now? The strategy I developed back then needed some fine tuning. I've done that. I felt like I played very well at the WSOPE when I came in second.Back to the original point:What I did, or what PH did years ago, has absolutely NOTHING to do with any conversation about who the best NL hold'em tournament players are today. You can't rest on a past resume since NL hold'em tournaments today are simply much different than they were just 3 years ago. Imagine what poker was like 10 years ago in terms of the skill set? It was very different indeed, and the tournaments, for ANY aggressive player, were much easier to beat.Our world is all about "What have you done for me LATELY." There is no doubt that back in the day, Hellmuth's approach crushed tournaments and he was ahead of his time. The truth is this though: the rest of the world caught up thanks to the internet and forums like this one. These kids will play back at him and don't bow down to him.Today, PH can still wade through large fields full of donkeys, but when faced with other professional players his approach is easily defended against and exploited. If you look at PH's results over the past, say, 5 years in high buy in (10k and above) tournaments, they are actually indicative of the fact that he isn't much of a threat. He's had a few deep runs in the ME, but that event is unique in that it's full of amateurs and that is an environment where PH really excels.I base my opinion not only on his results, but what I see with my own eyes. These young kids are really good, but he just doesn't want to give them any credit. I won't make that mistake, and realize that to stay competitive I have to get BETTER. I'm trying to do just that. Link to post Share on other sites
DanielNegreanu 141 Posted December 23, 2009 Author Share Posted December 23, 2009 This was a response in a thread at 2+2 that I thought you guys might like to read also. Link to post Share on other sites
Sick Boy 0 Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 You're like the biggest PH hater I have ever seen. lol.EDIT: By far.In any case, good post Daniel. Link to post Share on other sites
Mills 0 Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 can you link the thread? Link to post Share on other sites
JubilantLankyLad 1,957 Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 This was a response in a thread at 2+2 that I thought you guys might like to read also.then why don't you link it? Link to post Share on other sites
rcgs59 15 Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 Let me make a point to all of you to help you understand the difference between past results and the current state of poker:What I did in 2004 has no bearing, and absolutely zero correlation to my NL hold'em tournament game today. At that time, I had a good run of cards, but most importantly, and this is going to sound arrogant, but it's true, the rest of the poker world hadn't caught up yet with how effective small is in deep stacked tournaments.Today, the majority of touring regulars play some form of small ball, which in a nutshell I'll describe as,"Making small investments to hit big, and making sure that when you are in a marginal spot, you keep the pot small. If you play a big pot, have the nuts, or close to it." Simple right? Well in 2004 no one was more committed to that then me, and it worked perfectly. I got so many "gifts" that year where people handed me there chips.Since then, the younger players have learned to adapt by realizing the truth: that the small ball style I played pre-flop is on the sloppy side with the goal of getting paid off big. So they adapted by taking advantage of the sloppy play pre-flop, but at the same time, they DON'T make the large donations when I hit.So where does that leave us now? The strategy I developed back then needed some fine tuning. I've done that. I felt like I played very well at the WSOPE when I came in second.Back to the original point:What I did, or what PH did years ago, has absolutely NOTHING to do with any conversation about who the best NL hold'em tournament players are today. You can't rest on a past resume since NL hold'em tournaments today are simply much different than they were just 3 years ago. Imagine what poker was like 10 years ago in terms of the skill set? It was very different indeed, and the tournaments, for ANY aggressive player, were much easier to beat.Our world is all about "What have you done for me LATELY." There is no doubt that back in the day, Hellmuth's approach crushed tournaments and he was ahead of his time. The truth is this though: the rest of the world caught up thanks to the internet and forums like this one. These kids will play back at him and don't bow down to him.Today, PH can still wade through large fields full of donkeys, but when faced with other professional players his approach is easily defended against and exploited. If you look at PH's results over the past, say, 5 years in high buy in (10k and above) tournaments, they are actually indicative of the fact that he isn't much of a threat. He's had a few deep runs in the ME, but that event is unique in that it's full of amateurs and that is an environment where PH really excels.I base my opinion not only on his results, but what I see with my own eyes. These young kids are really good, but he just doesn't want to give them any credit. I won't make that mistake, and realize that to stay competitive I have to get BETTER. I'm trying to do just that.It's a proven fact that time has always changed. You Just have to see it and believe it. It only makes sense that some of the small ball strategy needs also to change just a few adjustments to it. I have no doubt that your game will adapt Daniel one thing is to show you can change to the times. It's bold and it shows your willing to move ahead and with the changes not against it. Phil will not change as he not willing to see , or open his eye's to it lol. The kids now a days of course make it more aggressive and are bolder it doesn't mean that us older ones can't adapt to there games lol. We are just as bold and just as wise. Remember we have experience behind us Link to post Share on other sites
king_tanner 84 Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 Daniel, I get the main idea of your post. But... You're like the biggest PH hater I have ever seen. lol.EDIT: By far.In any case, good post Daniel.This is the first time I ever agreed with Sick Boy. You hate on PH like no other. I think everyone has heard your feelings on Phil several times. We get it, you don't respect his game and you don't like how he calls himself the "best holdem player in the world." He is not going to change though.Also, everytime I hear Phil talk about you in the media he says nice things. Is he not like this in real life? Why all the hate? Link to post Share on other sites
silverstrone 0 Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 Let me make a point to all of you to help you understand the difference between past results and the current state of poker:What I did in 2004 has no bearing, and absolutely zero correlation to my NL hold'em tournament game today. At that time, I had a good run of cards, but most importantly, and this is going to sound arrogant, but it's true, the rest of the poker world hadn't caught up yet with how effective small is in deep stacked tournaments.Today, the majority of touring regulars play some form of small ball, which in a nutshell I'll describe as,"Making small investments to hit big, and making sure that when you are in a marginal spot, you keep the pot small. If you play a big pot, have the nuts, or close to it." Simple right? Well in 2004 no one was more committed to that then me, and it worked perfectly. I got so many "gifts" that year where people handed me there chips.Since then, the younger players have learned to adapt by realizing the truth: that the small ball style I played pre-flop is on the sloppy side with the goal of getting paid off big. So they adapted by taking advantage of the sloppy play pre-flop, but at the same time, they DON'T make the large donations when I hit.So where does that leave us now? The strategy I developed back then needed some fine tuning. I've done that. I felt like I played very well at the WSOPE when I came in second.Back to the original point:What I did, or what PH did years ago, has absolutely NOTHING to do with any conversation about who the best NL hold'em tournament players are today. You can't rest on a past resume since NL hold'em tournaments today are simply much different than they were just 3 years ago. Imagine what poker was like 10 years ago in terms of the skill set? It was very different indeed, and the tournaments, for ANY aggressive player, were much easier to beat.Our world is all about "What have you done for me LATELY." There is no doubt that back in the day, Hellmuth's approach crushed tournaments and he was ahead of his time. The truth is this though: the rest of the world caught up thanks to the internet and forums like this one. These kids will play back at him and don't bow down to him.Today, PH can still wade through large fields full of donkeys, but when faced with other professional players his approach is easily defended against and exploited. If you look at PH's results over the past, say, 5 years in high buy in (10k and above) tournaments, they are actually indicative of the fact that he isn't much of a threat. He's had a few deep runs in the ME, but that event is unique in that it's full of amateurs and that is an environment where PH really excels.I base my opinion not only on his results, but what I see with my own eyes. These young kids are really good, but he just doesn't want to give them any credit. I won't make that mistake, and realize that to stay competitive I have to get BETTER. I'm trying to do just that.Dude u have a pshycological problem with Hellmuth, u are always referring to him in every single post!! leave him alone dude!!!and btw u too much full yourself Link to post Share on other sites
king_tanner 84 Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 Dude u have a pshycological problem with Hellmuth, u are always referring to him in every single post!! leave him alone dude!!!and btw u too much full yourselfoh.. you are still here Link to post Share on other sites
Tehtoe 3 Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 Yeah, the PH hate seems to be getting a bit over the top...are you just doing it b/c you think that's what people wanna hear, or what? Link to post Share on other sites
Sick Boy 0 Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 Oh wow,EDIT: Oh snap Link to post Share on other sites
slink 1 Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 Don't you think the Helmuth hate is done tongue-in-cheek? I mean it has to be, else the big pasty white guy would have laid out the shorter canadian. Link to post Share on other sites
king_tanner 84 Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 Don't you think the Helmuth hate is done tongue-in-cheek? I mean it has to be, else the big pasty white guy would have laid out the shorter canadian.Nope Daniel has denounced his fighting skills also. Link to post Share on other sites
DCJ001 0 Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 then why don't you link it? http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/37/telev...52/index16.html Link to post Share on other sites
slink 1 Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 Nope Daniel has denounced his fighting skills also.Yeah. PH looked a little scared when Dragomir stood up to him at last year's WSOP (2008). Link to post Share on other sites
Sick Boy 0 Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 Daniel, I get the main idea of your post. But...This is the first time I ever agreed with Sick Boy. You hate on PH like no other. I think everyone has heard your feelings on Phil several times. We get it, you don't respect his game and you don't like how he calls himself the "best holdem player in the world." He is not going to change though.Also, everytime I hear Phil talk about you in the media he says nice things. Is he not like this in real life? Why all the hate?QFT, Link to post Share on other sites
CrookedLink 0 Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 These guys are crazy Daniel, keep the Hellmuth hate coming. Guy deserves it for the way he carries himself at a poker table. Link to post Share on other sites
StrippersNBlow 0 Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 Leave Phil alone. He's already a joke, no need to be a bully. Even he doesn't believe the things he says. I don't like the guy either, but I quit shooting the retarded kids with spitballs in elementary school. Link to post Share on other sites
Royal_Tour 0 Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 who gives a shit about PH, or rather Daniel being mean to someone.I just watched the 1st RailBirds episode of PAD and man.. no wonder i stopped watching that show. The poker (or entertainment if you can call it) is shit.I'm not a fan of this at all. Id rather see 3 pro's play 3 rich amateurs...or better yet, i'd rather watch 6 no names with big bank rolls battle. This show was a waste of my time Link to post Share on other sites
Suited_Up 2 Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 who gives a shit about PH, or rather Daniel being mean to someone.This.Especially if what he's saying is true, which it is. Link to post Share on other sites
fighter 4 Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 LEAVE PHIL ALONE Link to post Share on other sites
dscoot 0 Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 it seems like a large part of your post is about PH.ivey has had quite a few deep runs in the ME this decade, those results seem to solidify his position as best in the world, yet PH's ME runs do not, and actually in DN mind it makes PH worse??pretty sure GUS has had two deep runs the past four years in the ME also, scotty ngyun, esfandiari, cunningham, matesow, raymer/hachem/eatgate (lol not sure if they should be included), have all had deep runs lately, these players are definitely considered the top tier in the world. so how come ph's ME runs are attributed to it being a fishy field and not his increased skill? i dont hear anyone saying scotty, antonio, allen, mike, greg, joe and peter deserve less credit because the ME field sux. Link to post Share on other sites
Suited_Up 2 Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 it seems like a large part of your post is about PH.ivey has had quite a few deep runs in the ME this decade, those results seem to solidify his position as best in the world, yet PH's ME runs do not, and actually in DN mind it makes PH worse??pretty sure GUS has had two deep runs the past four years in the ME also, scotty ngyun, esfandiari, cunningham, matesow, raymer/hachem/eatgate (lol not sure if they should be included), have all had deep runs lately, these players are definitely considered the top tier in the world. so how come ph's ME runs are attributed to it being a fishy field and not his increased skill? i dont hear anyone saying scotty, antonio, allen, mike, greg, joe and peter deserve less credit because the ME field sux.His point was, a wide range of players can get deep in the ME. You need to look at results from other 10k tournaments. Link to post Share on other sites
uncooper 1 Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 it seems like a large part of your post is about PH.ivey has had quite a few deep runs in the ME this decade, those results seem to solidify his position as best in the world, yet PH's ME runs do not, and actually in DN mind it makes PH worse??pretty sure GUS has had two deep runs the past four years in the ME also, scotty ngyun, esfandiari, cunningham, matesow, raymer/hachem/eatgate (lol not sure if they should be included), have all had deep runs lately, these players are definitely considered the top tier in the world. so how come ph's ME runs are attributed to it being a fishy field and not his increased skill? i dont hear anyone saying scotty, antonio, allen, mike, greg, joe and peter deserve less credit because the ME field sux. Link to post Share on other sites
coug2828 8 Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/37/telev...52/index16.htmlpost #87 on the 2+2 thread is gold Link to post Share on other sites
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