Royal_Tour 0 Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 Except for providing extra funds it could be said that is exactly what went on with the November 9. I saw a video on Cardplayer with Hellmuth and Shulman where they had a fake final table where they had other people take on the persona of the actual final table players. They collected data on each player tells, HH, etc., and formulated their game plan based on that. It might not be as concrete as studying reams of hand histories, nevertheless it was done to give Shulman an edge over his opponents. If you allow someone to share one hand shouldn't they be allowed to share 50, 500 or 50,000? I agree, what they did was calculated and very pointed but I wouldn't call it cheating. Also, I would not be shocked if Isildur1 did the same exact thing to Dwan. In the pokernews interview was Isildur1, he said that all he does is play poker. Never read a book, talked poker or studied his play or the play of others. I find that hard to believe. I could be way off but that just doesn't jive. Also, Gary Wise on the Poker Beat said that Isildur's neighbor is also a high stakes poker player. Curious he didn't mention that. Do they only talk about Sweedish meatball recipes?really?? lol I didnt think i would need to use november 9 in my post, because i thought there is no way anyone will bring up Nov 9 as a comparison what Hellmuth and Shulman did was perfectly fine. why? because every player has the same edge. every player sees the same info on TV and every player has the same amount of hands collected from the WSOPMEhow do you not see the difference?If isildur studied dwan, thats fine. Thats not cheating. If Daniel and Patrik Antonius had excel spread sheets of dwan, and all 3 of them worked out the best way to beat Dwan, and then gave all that info to isildur, and Isildur technically had a very small sample size vs durrr. meaning durrrr would view him as a relatively unknown, yet isildur had a huge number of real hands, with real results. then that is cheating.do you see yet? Link to post Share on other sites
wildspoke 2 Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 we're talking a couple hands vs 50,000. second. You normally leave out the name of villains in strat. Its to discuss strategy. Not how to Beat 1 particular player.Could this be one of the reason why they have so much success while other wallow at the lower stakes? While most players will look at maybe 5, 100 or 1000 of their own hands they have gone the extra mile to not only analyze their game but the game of their opponents. Preperation is a direct link to success or failure. They prepared for this battle. As they probably did for ever step they made which enabled them to play at the highest level. What they did to Isildur is not new. But since it was at the highest level it's been magnified. Link to post Share on other sites
Mills 0 Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 What they did to Isildur is not new. But since it was at the highest level it's been magnified.Dosen't mean it's right...Yea, if he didn't open his mouth we'd have no way of knowing this went on... But he did. And so, not only is he a cheat, he's an idiot too. Link to post Share on other sites
GeneralGeeWhiz 0 Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 It's a joke that B Towny got his FTP pro status banned for only a month. This is a huge case of collusion and I think that all three (Hastings, South, Townsend) should be punished much harsher. More like six months to a year, imo. Link to post Share on other sites
Acekob 0 Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 It's a joke that B Towny got his FTP pro status banned for only a month. This is a huge case of collusion and I think that all three (Hastings, South, Townsend) should be punished much harsher. More like six months to a year, imo.Agree, a rule break with such grand consequences should be punished harder.Anyways, since FTP has closed down on this case, does Isildur have any further options as to regain (some of) the lost money? Link to post Share on other sites
CodyDean 0 Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 publicity stunt imo Link to post Share on other sites
DonkSlayer 1 Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 All ethical issues aside, they clearly broke FTP rules. FTP should really hit hard against these guys, including but not limited to banforlife. I suppose they could try to get the money back to Isildur, but it's probably gone and whether they can even do that to begin with is another issue. But seriously, banforlife. This will DESTROY FTP's high stakes action amongst anyone but the famous pros who are familiar enough with others that they would sniff out collusion. Link to post Share on other sites
AdamDarv 0 Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Clear case of violating the T's & C's of Full Tilt. The 3 should have their accounts frozen and banned for life from the site. Ship Isildur back his $4M and have him play against Antonius/Dwan/Others until he loses it all back again. Link to post Share on other sites
rawkodd 0 Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 It's a joke that B Towny got his FTP pro status banned for only a month. This is a huge case of collusion and I think that all three (Hastings, South, Townsend) should be punished much harsher. More like six months to a year, imo.permabanned Link to post Share on other sites
Big Oil 0 Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 I think it's questionable, but Isildur1's excuse of "impossible for me to adjust" is weak.After losing the first mil, don't you think you would say you needed to adjust? Link to post Share on other sites
ghostlove 0 Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 cant you just look up hand histories on PTR????im confused as to why this is a problem, besides getting the histories from ftp directly. Link to post Share on other sites
Suited_Up 2 Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 cant you just look up hand histories on PTR????im confused as to why this is a problem, besides getting the histories from ftp directly.I don't use it, but I thought you could too. I thought you could even buy big bunches of them if you want. Link to post Share on other sites
mase_gotsem 0 Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 They are basically impotent Link to post Share on other sites
vbnautilus 48 Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 cant you just look up hand histories on PTR????im confused as to why this is a problem, besides getting the histories from ftp directly.PTR is also against terms of service (at least during play).But also, while they show you aggregate stats, to get individual HH's from PTR you have to pay for them. Link to post Share on other sites
Suited_Up 2 Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 PTR is also against terms of service. But also, while they show you aggregate stats, to get individual HH's from PTR you have to pay for them.Probably costs less than $4mm though. Link to post Share on other sites
ghostlove 0 Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Probably costs less than $4mm though.lol awesome Link to post Share on other sites
DonkSlayer 1 Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 cant you just look up hand histories on PTR????im confused as to why this is a problem, besides getting the histories from ftp directly.It doesn't matter, you're not supposed to do it, and this was a huge violation in terms of the money taken and the notoriety of the participants. Can you control insider trading? No. Can two investors in private business swap info on theirs and others for investment purposes? Sure. If you get CAUGHT doing it with publicly-traded companies, it's a felony and you go to jail. Same thing that happened here. Link to post Share on other sites
Royal_Tour 0 Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 It doesn't matter, you're not supposed to do it, and this was a huge violation in terms of the money taken and the notoriety of the participants. Can you control insider trading? No. Can two investors in private business swap info on theirs and others for investment purposes? Sure. If you get CAUGHT doing it with publicly-traded companies, it's a felony and you go to jail. Same thing that happened here.I'll fast forward a few of the replies this post will get from some of the people in this thread who fail to see the wrong doing.."what about someone telling you what stocks you should buy? Like a broker, thats not illegal and its like the same thing" Link to post Share on other sites
Shark527 0 Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 The first step to this is for them to block all HUD/PT software. Sure, players can still track this information, but at least it prevents the seamless overlay to their gaming tables.This is going to be a never-ending grey area. The more sites allow for non-human conditions to be implemented into the game, the more you are going to have grey area issues.The first real step in the right direction for online poker. - Stuff like this has been going on since the beginning of tracking software. It's just the amount of money involved that blew the top. Townsend is an idiot. If he put in the hours and got all of this information, why wouldn't he just play Isildur himself and keep all the profit? Link to post Share on other sites
Lucoo_ 0 Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 I don't see how this is any different from posting hands in a strategy forum and asking for advice.And how on earth is any poker site gonna make sure people don't swap hand histories anyways ?? Link to post Share on other sites
blakheart 3 Posted December 28, 2009 Share Posted December 28, 2009 It doesn't matter, you're not supposed to do it, and this was a huge violation in terms of the money taken and the notoriety of the participants. Can you control insider trading? No. Can two investors in private business swap info on theirs and others for investment purposes? Sure. If you get CAUGHT doing it with publicly-traded companies, it's a felony and you go to jail. Same thing that happened here.Best example yet. The fact that it is difficult to enforce doesn't change right and wrong. Clearly what they did was wrong. A site writes rules, and some are easier to enforce then other. But when the site has evidence of cheating they need to take a strong stance to maintain credibility. Link to post Share on other sites
Sens-Eh 0 Posted December 28, 2009 Share Posted December 28, 2009 I still think the site that adds the option to "hide your name" will get a ton of players....Tracking software would still be allowed, and your own database will still give you all the info you need to analyze your own leaks, and track your win rate etc, but when you are seated at the table the other players just see you as "Player in Seat 3". They won't be able to accumulate any long term info on you. Allow for session stats (let the HUD's notice when one player leaves and is replaced by a new player in that seat). But no long term stats unless the player chooses to reveal his playername. Just like your Stars VPP stars, or your FTP IronMan status - let it be a personal choice. Link to post Share on other sites
JoblessBast 0 Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 I still think the site that adds the option to "hide your name" will get a ton of players...That might be a decent draw for a new site, but I wouldn't expect FTP to add this option. Almost their entire marketing plan was based around signing all the big names, so that you can "learn, chat, and play" with them. Allowing them to hide themselves would be pretty antithetical.Even the name "PokerStars" makes me think they'd never do it either. Link to post Share on other sites
Quacktastic 106 Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 That might be a decent draw for a new site, but I wouldn't expect FTP to add this option. Almost their entire marketing plan was based around signing all the big names, so that you can "learn, chat, and play" with them. Allowing them to hide themselves would be pretty antithetical.Even the name "PokerStars" makes me think they'd never do it either.I'm sure the big names would still be required to play under their names for a certain # of hours, if not 100% of their play. Link to post Share on other sites
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