Live 1/2 Hand

[Mills 0]

that lead out is trash... I thought it was KQ, turned out it was AJ, we have it crushed either way... so if we know that we dont have to worry about him and our only concern is the caller... we need to ask ourself what a tight player who raised from first position and then flatted a RR tank calls on a board like that... It almost cant be anything BUT AKI dont think getting a little info is a bad Idea at all, is JJ out of anyone's range here?

[hartman72 0]

that lead out is trash... I thought it was KQ, turned out it was AJ, we have it crushed either way... so if we know that we dont have to worry about him and our only concern is the caller... we need to ask ourself what a tight player who raised from first position and then flatted a RR tank calls on a board like that... It almost cant be anything BUT AKI dont think getting a little info is a bad Idea at all, is JJ out of anyone's range here?

As far as UTG, no, JJ is not in his range. He would have fired the turn and definitely would have raised river. For the SB, it certainly was in his range preflop and on the flop. But I just did not think he had JJ or 77 for that matter on the turn. Most people where I play at love building big pots before the river, rather than on the river. If he did river a boat, I would say he would have bet 100- maybe 125 on the river. After all, UTG plus I look rather weak when we both check turn. He'd want to get called if he put us on TPTK.

[mtdesmoines 3]

Why, exactly? Pot control is fine here, especially since if we do bet turn we're checking behind the river UI.

I'm never aiming for pot control here. We have a monkey in the hand that we're likely crushing and a second villain with an amazingly well-defined range. AFAIAC, on my signal, unleash hell.

[Mills 0]

My main problem isnt seeing where we are, although we can do that, I agree that it looks like you have it... I mainly contend that you could have won more in this pot than you did.SB gave himself away with the size of his bet, I agree with that, if he makes a value size bet and gets called you have a much tougher decision, as it stands, though... i think a raise on the river is the move.

[hartman72 0]

My main problem isnt seeing where we are, although we can do that, I agree that it looks like you have it... I mainly contend that you could have won more in this pot than you did.SB gave himself away with the size of his bet, I agree with that, if he makes a value size bet and gets called you have a much tougher decision, as it stands, though... i think a raise on the river is the move.

I posted this hand mainly to see if people agreed with checking the turn here, even though that may seem like a ridiculous spot to actually check.Now, I second guess whether a raise on the river would be the right play. After all, the only hand that mattered to me on the river was the SB, and I was confident I was ahead. It's such a tough spot, but I think it would be a great play, given the situation I was in.

[Andynice20 0]

we're betting the turn for value/ find out where we are... why would we ever check that river?what is the purpose of pot control here? The way the hand is being played, is there any reason to think you shouldnt be trying to get as much value as possible

+1This isn't a tourney where you have to sometimes give up value for chip conservation, side games IMHO are about maximizing the value of every hand. I would never EVER check the turn. If we are positive that one guy has us tied and one guy we have crushed the more money in the pot the better. And maybe its just me, but considering this is a 1-2 game and the dryness of that board, I would have no problem playing a set of 7's like this from the SB on the flop then c/r the turn. Mainly because on the flop I'm giving UTG a chance to check raise and possibly get stacks involved on the flop. I know limits shouldn't matter, but lets get serious, they do.

[Naps_555 0]

+1This isn't a tourney where you have to sometimes give up value for chip conservation, side games IMHO are about maximizing the value of every hand. I would never EVER check the turn. If we are positive that one guy has us tied and one guy we have crushed the more money in the pot the better. And maybe its just me, but considering this is a 1-2 game and the dryness of that board, I would have no problem playing a set of 7's like this from the SB on the flop then c/r the turn. Mainly because on the flop I'm giving UTG a chance to check raise and possibly get stacks involved on the flop. I know limits shouldn't matter, but lets get serious, they do.

i think 77 and KJ is definitely in the SB's range here, as they could quite easily have been going for a C/R on the turn.So i dont mind checking behind on the Turn with TP/TK, as it will control the size of the pot if we are beaten, and it will induce a river bluff or a value bet from a worse hand as we played our hand so weakly.Given that we checked behind on the turn, we have to call the river bet despite the fact that we are certain we are chopping with the UTG, and there are really only 2 hands in the SB's range that beat us (77 and KJ) (we are calling $200 to chop $440).The only reason for putting in a raise on the river is to take down the pot without showdown, and push UTG off the same hand so that we don't have to chop with him, the only problem in this scenario is that the SB's river bet was too big, and our raise would be to $420 all in (just more than a min raise), Its not enough to push UTG off his hand, and the SB is only calling if he has us beat, so there is no gain only risk in raising the river.

[hartman72 0]

i think 77 and KJ is definitely in the SB's range here, as they could quite easily have been going for a C/R on the turn.So i dont mind checking behind on the Turn with TP/TK, as it will control the size of the pot if we are beaten, and it will induce a river bluff or a value bet from a worse hand as we played our hand so weakly.Given that we checked behind on the turn, we have to call the river bet despite the fact that we are certain we are chopping with the UTG, and there are really only 2 hands in the SB's range that beat us (77 and KJ) (we are calling $200 to chop $440).The only reason for putting in a raise on the river is to take down the pot without showdown, and push UTG off the same hand so that we don't have to chop with him, the only problem in this scenario is that the SB's river bet was too big, and our raise would be to $420 all in (just more than a min raise), Its not enough to push UTG off his hand, and the SB is only calling if he has us beat, so there is no gain only risk in raising the river.

I agree with that up till the 200 dollar bet on the river. I just don't see sb betting that much with a boat, especially after the turn was checked. I mean, our hands can't be that strong can it? I would be more afraid of a 100 to 150 dollar bet by sb.

[mtdesmoines 3]

I agree with that up till the 200 dollar bet on the river. I just don't see sb betting that much with a boat, especially after the turn was checked. I mean, our hands can't be that strong can it? I would be more afraid of a 100 to 150 dollar bet by sb.

Again, guy's a monkey. We happily (occasionally) pay off monkeys in this spot.

[Mercury69 3]

SB is a donk.

[XXEddie 0]

dont ever check that turn, and i probably stack off here unless villains are solid rocks

It would take a hell of a lot more than TPTK to stack off 250bbs

[mtdesmoines 3]

It would take a hell of a lot more than TPTK to stack off 250bbs

What leads us to believe we are behind?

[XXEddie 0]

What leads us to believe we are behind?

Somebody else who is willing to put in 250bbs would make me think TPTK may not be the best hand.

[DonkSlayer 1]

I think you played it great sir, and frankly I'm not sure if it's all that interesting of a hand, with your reads on the villain who you're very familiar with. 90% and better that you have SB beat, then the proper play is to raise the river, but at 80% I flat the river behind as well so I can chop it up. 77 isn't in your familiar villain's range right? If he's familiar with you as well as you are him, he could pits as his AK.

[Andynice20 0]

Somebody else who is willing to put in 250bbs would make me think TPTK may not be the best hand.

Play much live 1-2? I don't much anymore, but I can tell you when I did you'd be surprised what happens there. Stacking off with small flush draws and top pair no kicker is actually quite the norm. Quality live poker doesn't start until 5-10NL and 20-40 Limit and even then if its a weekend you're in for a ride. I would have no problem stacking off 250bbs (which is technically more like 125 bb's anyways since live 1-2 plays more like 2-4 with the preflop bets) in this scenario.Back to this hand, my main concern here would be checking the turn... I really don't understand the need to control the size of the pot if we KNOW we have everyone either beat or tied at worst? Again maximizing value is the key.

[SwolyswoND 1]

Live poker or not, if you guys keep stacking off 250 BBs deep with one pair hands, you're going to go broke. There is nothing wrong with pot controlling this turn, and IMO its the ideal play.

[Andynice20 0]

Live poker or not, if you guys keep stacking off 250 BBs deep with one pair hands, you're going to go broke. There is nothing wrong with pot controlling this turn, and IMO its the ideal play.

I 100% disagree with both of your comments, but that's why its an opinion forum! Much luv brotha!

[hartman72 0]

Play much live 1-2? I don't much anymore, but I can tell you when I did you'd be surprised what happens there. Stacking off with small flush draws and top pair no kicker is actually quite the norm. Quality live poker doesn't start until 5-10NL and 20-40 Limit and even then if its a weekend you're in for a ride. I would have no problem stacking off 250bbs (which is technically more like 125 bb's anyways since live 1-2 plays more like 2-4 with the preflop bets) in this scenario.Back to this hand, my main concern here would be checking the turn... I really don't understand the need to control the size of the pot if we KNOW we have everyone either beat or tied at worst? Again maximizing value is the key.

Don't you think checking the turn IS maximizing value here? I mean, we know we're beating SB but are pretty sure he'd fold to a good sized bet on the turn. And it's not like UTG will fold to a bet on the turn.

[DonkSlayer 1]

This isn't a tourney where you have to sometimes give up value for chip conservation, side games IMHO are about maximizing the value of every hand.

There is ONE hand, given hero's read, that EITHER of the villains could have that Hero is losing value against by not betting the turn: Q10. One.

[XXEddie 0]

Live poker or not, if you guys keep stacking off 250 BBs deep with one pair hands, you're going to go broke. There is nothing wrong with pot controlling this turn, and IMO its the ideal play.

Thank you!

[Mills 0]

"if you keep stacking off...."no one is saying make a habbit of stacking off with one pair, only that we are willing to do it if our reads and the villians line dictates such a thing.case by case basis.

[Royal_Tour 0]

Sorry, no hand convertor.I played a hand at my local casino today, that I thought was one of the most interesting I've been in. I took a very weird line, but I was confident I made the right decision on all three streets. I knew 1st position very well, he's a very tight, solid player. SB just came to table. I'd like to hear thoughts by some live players out there and I'll share my opinion on the hand if there's any good feedback.SB~8001st position~600Hero (Button)~5001st position raises to 10, Hero raises to 30 with AK, SB calls, 1st position calls.Flop: K J 7 rainbow.SB checks, 1st position bets 50, Hero calls, SB calls.Turn: 5SB checks, 1st position checks, Hero checks.River: 5SB bets 200, 1st position tanks for 3 min and calls, Hero calls.Comments/Analysis?

I havent read any replies.First, - I'd raise the flop to 140. secondas much as this sb bet smells of a bluff, its a boat .sb called a raise/re-raise cold OOP.. if this isnt a PP.. well shit.. I really dont see this being Q,10.then to make things even worse. we have a solid tight player opening for a raise in EP then calling the re-raise, and finally he calls the 200 on the end.I dont see him doing this with QQ or worse. (possible, maybe he's having a slow day)so in conclusion here, this is mostly a fold.

[Royal_Tour 0]

Wow, all good responses. Here is my thought process.When UTG called 20 more, I completely ruled out AA. He 4 bets me 100% of the time with another player in the pot. If we were heads up, it might be different.When he bet 50 on the flop, his hand is either JJ or AK. NOTHING else. (Remember I've played with this villain a lot)I'm not good enough to lay AK down to a single bet on that flop, so I called. I was a little uneasy about the SB calling but many 1/2 players call there with Q 10, A Q, who knows what else.When the SB checked the turn, I ruled out a set of 7s or Js. Most live players love building a pot on the turn and I just didn't think he'd check a set in that spot with the pot already close to 200. When UTG checked, I KNEW he had AK then, he certainly would have bet JJ. He knows I'm a somewhat decent player, so he knew I had to have a big hand, so I think he makes a good check here.SO, now that I'm pretty much 100% sure UTG has AK, and I'm about 80% certain I have SB crushed, I decide to check. No way SB calls a reasonable bet on the turn with a worse hand than mine......IMO.The river pairs 5's, but that is unimportant to how the hand was played preflop and on the flop. SB pushes in 200!!? UTG tanks of course as I figured he would and calls. Now, if UTG and I had A LOT more chips, I might consider a raise since I though I had SB beat. I just call though and SB showed AJ, and UTG shows AK and we chop. I'm not sure if SB was value betting or what, but he was visibly upset with the way I played the hand. He said my check on the turn was the worst he's ever seen, but I think it's debatable with what I knew. I'm not saying the check was good, but I'd have to hear some solid reasoning to change my mind, considering what I knew in the hand.

This is such poor reasoning. so.. even tho the hand worked out for you. its safe to say you and every at the table are bad players. No offence, but to put the stigma that you and UTG are solid regs is silly.you assigned Q,10 on your SB? and thats it. so thats why you called....?I agree UTG shows up with AK often, but thats a chop at best. why are we calling for a chop(Oh and if you notice, my advice about betting the flop is the best line. SB folds out his junk. and UTG probably calls. then he probably looks to check/call turn. this is where your position and stack comes in handy.)you could have easily scooped this entire pot by repping AA, JJ , AK - (which would be the only hand he doesnt lose to) or even the 1 combo of KK

[Mills 0]

you really think SB shows up witha boat there often? I have to say I very much disagree... especially with his bet sizing on the river... SB dosen't call a raise and a reraise, he calls a bet and a raise... I hate to be nitpicky but termonology is very important here... there is a huge difference between a three bet and a bet and a raise...UTG is so well defined here that there is almost zero chance he has us beat... SB could turn up with a full house here... but this dosent seem like a very probable live line for me

[tskillz187 0]

Yeah, over calling is pretty terrible on that river.