Role Reversal Thread

[vbnautilus 48]

This is an exercise in perspective taking. In this thread, you must argue for the side you don't really believe in, and you must do it to the best of your ability. For example, if I say "God exists because the bible says so!" I am not really playing the game since I don't think that's a good argument. In here, Balloon Guy and brvheart are hard-core atheists, while crowTrobot and royal tour are born-again christians. I will start by making the argument that religion is Good Thing™, inspired by a recent Speedz comment. What other force can take a guy who was a serial killer and turn him into a positive figure in prison, encouraging other prisoners to leave a life of crime and become good people? Religion's track record in causing transformative experiences is undeniable, and it's not restricted to prisoners. Drug addicts, alcoholics and just run-of-the-mill jerks have turned their lives around as a direct result of deepening their relationship with God. How can that be a bad thing?

[Royal_Tour 0]

This is a cool project that would work well inside a classroom.not sure how well it will work here. But if others play, i will too.

[Balloon guy 158]

It can be a bad thing because it gives people false hope in a myth that allows them to commit actions that are bad for society and claim that God told them to do it.Until people can see the falseness in the need for religion to explain the universe, we will be stuck in the middle ages of evolution and never transfer our identity into the future.

[vbnautilus 48]

It can be a bad thing because it gives people false hope in a myth that allows them to commit actions that are bad for society and claim that God told them to do it.

Hope is hope. If you are hopeful, does it matter why? What actions do religious people commit that are bad for society? What, too many soup kitchens and homeless shelters?

Until people can see the falseness in the need for religion to explain the universe, we will be stuck in the middle ages of evolution and never transfer our identity into the future.

The question is whether our future is one of spiritual fulfillment or of depravity and moral decline.

[Balloon guy 158]

Hope is hope. If you are hopeful, does it matter why?

hope based on lies isn't hope, it is delusion, and as such it is unhealthy for a society to be so willfully committed to a lie.

What actions do religious people commit that are bad for society? What, too many soup kitchens and homeless shelters?

There are many examples of religions doing bad for society, from Catholic priest to the crusades to the may wars fought over religious fervor.

The question is whether our future is one of spiritual fulfillment or of depravity and moral decline.

There is nothing fulfilling in basing your world view and personal values on a made up story with no basis in facts

[Balloon guy 158]

Oh and $5 says that crow and RT can't make even a remote semblance of an effort to perform in this experiment without obvious efforts to make my side look foolish.

[JoeyJoJo 18]

I want to play. What role can I have?

[Balloon guy 158]

I want to play. What role can I have?

You can now be an interested third party who's job it is to stir things up for your own enjoyment.

[crowTrobot 2]

Oh and $5 says that crow and RT can't make even a remote semblance of an effort to perform in this experiment without obvious efforts to make my side look foolish.

i consider this pointless so am not participating. have fun.

[Royal_Tour 0]

It can be a bad thing because it gives people false hope in a myth that allows them to commit actions that are bad for society and claim that God told them to do it.

There is no false hope when you're following your beliefs because its inside you. Do not confuse someones radical ideas or skewed perception of religious belief with the true meaning.

There is nothing fulfilling in basing your world view and personal values on a made up story with no basis in facts

You can argue that these stories are made up, yet you have no actual proof that they are, or aren't.what we do know is that the bible has been written with the word of God. And its precision between gospels counting over hundreds of years is a great miracle in itself. show me any other form of visual proof that can account for the amazing accuracy that explains the creation of our universePlease read and review the following the Torah, the Nevi'im , and the Ketuvim. To truly understand and grasp my beliefs is to know the books of the bible.You'll change your views once you come to the realization that the bible itself is more than stories.

[Royal_Tour 0]

i consider this pointless so am not participating. have fun.

lolI'll tell you.. after reading BG's comments in this thread, all i wanna do is "QFT - and be like. ok you win.. " but its a good work out for my brain to cycle backwards

[Balloon guy 158]

i consider this pointless so am not participating. have fun.

Okay vb, you owe me $5

[Balloon guy 158]

There is no false hope when you're following your beliefs because its inside you. Do not confuse someones radical ideas or skewed perception of religious belief with the true meaning. You can argue that these stories are made up, yet you have no actual proof that they are, or aren't.what we do know is that the bible has been written with the word of God. And its precision between gospels counting over hundreds of years is a great miracle in itself. show me any other form of visual proof that can account for the amazing accuracy that explains the creation of our universePlease read and review the following the Torah, the Nevi'im , and the Ketuvim. To truly understand and grasp my beliefs is to know the books of the bible.You'll change your views once you come to the realization that the bible itself is more than stories.

Looks like you owe me $10 vb...cleaning up on this one

[Royal_Tour 0]

Looks like you owe me $10 vb...cleaning up on this one

common, I thought this was pretty good crazy talk.

[Balloon guy 158]

common, I thought this was pretty good crazy talk.

I think it is exactly what you think Christians think, but it is not what Christians think, which is the point of this thread: to show how poor each of us understands the other side's position.Except I nailed it, and crow revealed how blindly one-sided his thought patterns are.and now I am up $10 on vb, who will Welsh on the bet because of some lame-o "I never took the bet" position which we all know is based on biased faulty logic.

[speedz99 145]

There are many examples of religions doing bad for society, from Catholic priest to the crusades to the may wars fought over religious fervor

The catholic priest thing is correlation without causation. And most "religious wars" are actually political wars hidden behind religion to get people more willing to die for the cause.

[Royal_Tour 0]

And most "religious wars" are actually political wars hidden behind religion to get people more willing to die for the cause.

this is pretty accurate IMO>

[Balloon guy 158]

The catholic priest thing is correlation without causation.

This would be true had the top brass at the vatican not had a say to the punishment or lack there of. Since they did, it makes it a church issue.

And most "religious wars" are actually political wars hidden behind religion to get people more willing to die for the cause.

Hence the argument that having a society founded in a belief system based on a lie, allows for easy manipulation. this would not occur if a civilization was filled with people who base their worldviews on facts and not feelings.

[vbnautilus 48]

There are many examples of religions doing bad for society, from Catholic priest to the crusades to the may wars fought over religious fervor.

All of those examples are not examples of people behaving in a truly Christian way. Just because a judge is caught taking a bribe does not mean that our justice system is misguided.

i consider this pointless so am not participating. have fun.

booooooo

[Balloon guy 158]

All of those examples are not examples of people behaving in a truly Christian way. Just because a judge is caught taking a bribe does not mean that our justice system is misguided.

But at the end of the day, it isn't the Bible that people judge Christianity on, it is the followers.

booooo

telling...isn't it.

[vbnautilus 48]

But at the end of the day, it isn't the Bible that people judge Christianity on, it is the followers.

The vast majority of whom behave better than their heathen counterparts. Goes back to my initial point that only religion has the power to transform lives from degenerate wastes into productive successes.

[Balloon guy 158]

The vast majority of whom behave better than their heathen counterparts. Goes back to my initial point that only religion has the power to transform lives from degenerate wastes into productive successes.

Having a reason to change your worldview is the catalyst here, not the actual reasons you base it on. If someone changes their ways because he becomes a father would we argue that sex is a motivator...wait, never mind on that one.If a person changed their ways because they found out that jail sucks couldn't we then argue that the penal system works?

[crowTrobot 2]

I think it is exactly what you think Christians think, but it is not what Christians think, which is the point of this thread: to show how poor each of us understands the other side's position.

false. so far (with the exception of one post by RT) you're just debating whether religion is *useful* or not, for which the arguments of either side are trivially easy to understand. try reverse-arguing your position on the historicity of the bible.

Except I nailed it, and crow revealed how blindly one-sided his thought patterns are.

i'm quite capable of considering your point of view, which is why i consider you an intellectually dishonest a-hole.

[crowTrobot 2]

double-click

[LongLiveYorke 38]

It can be a bad thing because it gives people false hope in a myth that allows them to commit actions that are bad for society and claim that God told them to do it.Until people can see the falseness in the need for religion to explain the universe, we will be stuck in the middle ages of evolution and never transfer our identity into the future.

Hi.Christianity isn't about a "need" for something. It isn't about "hope." That's like saying, 2 + 2 = 4 because I need it to be.It doesn't work that way. It just IS. God doesn't exist to fill a void (though, he does do that, of course). He exists because, without him, nothing would exist. Without an omnipotent entity to break the infinite cycle of regression, nothing can possibly be.There has to be an original mover, a universal cause. If not, we could ask, "what caused x, well, it was caused by y. But what caused y? It was caused by z..." There are two scenarios. Either we can ask these questions for infinity (ie there is no universal cause), or there is a universal end, and we eventually reach that end and say, "z was created by God".Clearly, the first scenario makes no sense. Infinite regression is impossible. So, there is a god, and it is he who is the cause of all that we see.Of course, that only explains that there is A god, not why there is the Christian god. For that, you have to look both at the evidence, and you have to search your soul to find what really makes sense, what you really believe in. Christianity has the benefit of plenty of evidence as well as making much more sense and being much more beautiful than any other religion. In other words, if there is a god, certainly he'd want to present himself to humanity, his creation, in some way. So, we can assume that god indeed has visited us in one form or another. What remains is to decide which claimed visit of those throughout history is most likely to have been the real god. I think Christianity (the story of Christ) wins by a wide margin.Good Luck.