Forgiveness

[speedz99 145]

No. I am saying that some evil requires one to give themselves over to something else first, and when that is done there is no turning back. The mind can never be anything but evil from that point on. We see this alot in cases like child molesters, this is why things like chemical castration is actually done. The mind cannot be repaired in and of itself, so one must trick the body with medication to stop what the mind thinks. Take away the restraints and the molestation begins anew. God would forgive if they were capable of asking for forgiveness and were actually repentant, but they are not. They can't be. That's why I said what I said about instinctively knowing where the line is. Dahmer, if released, would have been chowing down on people within days. He had no choice in the matter, he was no longer master of his domain.

You're describing an invisible line between good and evil. This line is standard for everyone...it has to be, since if you let everyone choose their own line you'd have Hitler and a whole host of suicide bombers getting into heaven because from their points of view they were honestly doing mankind a service. So since this line is standard, every action can be lumped into a binary "not evil" or "evil". That's not as easy as you think, and while I agree that the Dahmers of the world probably would never truly repent, because they believed what they did was all well and good, I think there are lots of other examples of people who did horrific things that really could ask for forgiveness and mean it.

[vbnautilus 48]

Never mind...someone else take this, please.

Nope. Forum rules, once you fulfill Godwin's Law you're on your own.

[SweetDee 0]

You're describing an invisible line between good and evil. This line is standard for everyone...it has to be, since if you let everyone choose their own line you'd have Hitler and a whole host of suicide bombers getting into heaven because from their points of view they were honestly doing mankind a service. So since this line is standard, every action can be lumped into a binary "not evil" or "evil". That's not as easy as you think, and while I agree that the Dahmers of the world probably would never truly repent, because they believed what they did was all well and good, I think there are lots of other examples of people who did horrific things that really could ask for forgiveness and mean it.

I agree it's not as easy as I made it sound, which is why it always comes down to "only God knows". I just think it's a lot easier to make a judgment call as a human from the outside looking in than some religious people would like to make it. I like what you said about the line being standard for everyone, but I disagree. I think each person has an individual invisible line that if they push it, they can snap and no longer have that whole mind, master of the domain. I have a stepsister who had an abortion, spent a month sleeping in graveyards, wailing away and wallowing in filth, wracked with guilt, because she believed that what she had done was it for her,no turning back. She currently resides in a mental institution where it would seem she was right- she is not all there, a wrecked human being. She had lived a life where she had made all kinds of what one would classify as bad choices, but that particular one for whatever reason was the catalyst for the abyss, madness I guess. I also dated a woman who had had 4 abortions and it was like getting a tooth pulled, no big deal. Who knows where her line is? I also have a sister in law who attempted to sell her kids to an undercover FBI agent as sex slaves. She seems to be a rational human being, and is currently serving a 20 plus sentence, but this person, if you knew her, for whatever reason can't seem to make a solid choice about much of anything. When given a choice between good and bad, she most often will go bad, and egregiously so. I am sure she has decided to turn to the lord, and convincingly so, but I am also sure that if she were let out, it would be back to doing all the wrong she could. Her repentance would most likely never be real. The moral of the issue is the mind is fascinating and I need a new family.

[CaneBrain 95]

This from the guy who can't push an elevator button on Saturdays? ( if he was Kosher )

Actually being Kosher only applies to food. If I observed the Sabbath rigorously, I would not even be able to use an elevator. But, I do not do any of that nonsense. Reform judaism ftw.An illustrative story:Sukkot (The Jewish holiday celebrating the harvest) fell on a Sunday this year. I was going with a buddy to the Dolphins Bills game. Before we left, we helped an orthodox buddy of his get set up for the game. We had to put the tv on the right channel (because he could not use the remote). We had to light a candle (so he could smoke if he pleased...no using lighters!). We had to put some water out next to him so he could have something to drink. Very complicated.I would have been more annoyed but the kid walked 50 blocks in a suit and tie just to get to my buddy's apartment because his parents never would have let him exploit loopholes like that to watch the game. He earned it.

[brvheart 1,752]

Actually being Kosher only applies to food. If I observed the Sabbath rigorously, I would not even be able to use an elevator. But, I do not do any of that nonsense. Reform judaism ftw.An illustrative story:Sukkot (The Jewish holiday celebrating the harvest) fell on a Sunday this year. I was going with a buddy to the Dolphins Bills game. Before we left, we helped an orthodox buddy of his get set up for the game. We had to put the tv on the right channel (because he could not use the remote). We had to light a candle (so he could smoke if he pleased...no using lighters!). We had to put some water out next to him so he could have something to drink. Very complicated.I would have been more annoyed but the kid walked 50 blocks in a suit and tie just to get to my buddy's apartment because his parents never would have let him exploit loopholes like that to watch the game. He earned it.

What are the chances that after you guys both left, that he used the remote? I mean, certainly, I would assume that he didn't, but the chances HAVE to be at least 30% or higher, right? People just put up fronts, is all I'm getting at.

[CaneBrain 95]

What are the chances that after you guys both left, that he used the remote? I mean, certainly, I would assume that he didn't, but the chances HAVE to be at least 30% or higher, right? People just put up fronts, is all I'm getting at.

He was already exploiting loopholes left and right so 30% sounds fair. But he went to a lot of trouble in the first place (walking 2 miles or so in MIAMI in a suit shows commitment). When we got back from the game, he was passed out snoring in the chair with the tv still on the same channel.

[brvheart 1,752]

He was already exploiting loopholes left and right so 30% sounds fair. But he went to a lot of trouble in the first place (walking 2 miles or so in MIAMI in a suit shows commitment). When we got back from the game, he was passed out snoring in the chair with the tv still on the same channel.

I think the percentage probably just went to about 75, although the game would have been over, and so he might not have cared anymore.

[speedz99 145]

I like what you said about the line being standard for everyone, but I disagree. I think each person has an individual invisible line that if they push it, they can snap and no longer have that whole mind, master of the domain. I have a stepsister who had an abortion, spent a month sleeping in graveyards, wailing away and wallowing in filth, wracked with guilt, because she believed that what she had done was it for her,no turning back. She currently resides in a mental institution where it would seem she was right- she is not all there, a wrecked human being. She had lived a life where she had made all kinds of what one would classify as bad choices, but that particular one for whatever reason was the catalyst for the abyss, madness I guess. I also dated a woman who had had 4 abortions and it was like getting a tooth pulled, no big deal. Who knows where her line is? I also have a sister in law who attempted to sell her kids to an undercover FBI agent as sex slaves. She seems to be a rational human being, and is currently serving a 20 plus sentence, but this person, if you knew her, for whatever reason can't seem to make a solid choice about much of anything. When given a choice between good and bad, she most often will go bad, and egregiously so. I am sure she has decided to turn to the lord, and convincingly so, but I am also sure that if she were let out, it would be back to doing all the wrong she could. Her repentance would most likely never be real.

Ok, let's go with the abortion things. Assuming that abortion is a sin:Woman 1: Is like your stepsister. Is wracked with guilt and feels like an evil human being. Is bordering on madness because of crossing her personal line into the abyss.Woman 2: Is like the woman you dated. Has had 4 abortions and feels fine about it. No big deal.As far as I can tell, you're saying that W1 can never repent, because she has crossed her line into the realm of evil, and her mind is not capable of, etc. W2 has not crossed her personal line, and therefore still has full ability to understand repentence and forgiveness, etc. This seems backwards to me.

[brvheart 1,752]

Ok, let's go with the abortion things. Assuming that abortion is a sin:Woman 1: Is like your stepsister. Is wracked with guilt and feels like an evil human being. Is bordering on madness because of crossing her personal line into the abyss.Woman 2: Is like the woman you dated. Has had 4 abortions and feels fine about it. No big deal.As far as I can tell, you're saying that W1 can never repent, because she has crossed her line into the realm of evil, and her mind is not capable of, etc. W2 has not crossed her personal line, and therefore still has full ability to understand repentence and forgiveness, etc. This seems backwards to me.

I haven't even bothered to pay attention to SweetDee yet, and this isn't going to help, but it does bring up an interesting theological situation.I believe that the same act by two different people can be a sin for one and not for the other.

[SBriand 4]

I haven't even bothered to pay attention to SweetDee yet, and this isn't going to help, but it does bring up an interesting theological situation.I believe that the same act by two different people can be a sin for one and not for the other.

YOU MINDMY BLEW JUST

[crowTrobot 2]

YOU MINDMY BLEW JUST

yup, fundamentalist christian moral relativists are pretty hard to find to find for some reason.

[brvheart 1,752]

YOU MINDMY BLEW JUST

yup, fundamentalist christian moral relativists are pretty hard to find to find for some reason.

There are plenty of 'sins' that most people wouldn't find immoral.

[Balloon guy 158]

Actually being Kosher only applies to food. If I observed the Sabbath rigorously, I would not even be able to use an elevator. But, I do not do any of that nonsense. Reform judaism ftw.An illustrative story:Sukkot (The Jewish holiday celebrating the harvest) fell on a Sunday this year. I was going with a buddy to the Dolphins Bills game. Before we left, we helped an orthodox buddy of his get set up for the game. We had to put the tv on the right channel (because he could not use the remote). We had to light a candle (so he could smoke if he pleased...no using lighters!). We had to put some water out next to him so he could have something to drink. Very complicated.I would have been more annoyed but the kid walked 50 blocks in a suit and tie just to get to my buddy's apartment because his parents never would have let him exploit loopholes like that to watch the game. He earned it.

I thought there was a restriction on the number of steps they could take also...But part of me has a huge amount of respect for people who can live their faith to the point of major inconvenience. At my church if we avoid R rated movies people get high-minded

[brvheart 1,752]

I thought there was a restriction on the number of steps they could take also...But part of me has a huge amount of respect for people who can live their faith to the point of major inconvenience. At my church if we avoid R rated movies people get high-minded

I didn't see an R rated movie until I was in college.

[Balloon guy 158]

There are plenty of 'sins' that most people wouldn't find immoral.

I love these parts of the Bible, they show such a deepness in our lives that the people like crow can never understand with their shallow understanding.We are commanded not to do things that we do not feel are sin, but a weaker brother would consider it sin. So our liberty isn't to be used to cause a weaker brother to stumble. Used in context we were to avoid eating meats that were offensive to our Jewish brother. The Gentiles were not converted to Judaism when they become saved, so they could eat pork. To the Jewish believers this was offensive. So the command was to not do things that hurt others. The more mature understanding was that we are no longer bound by the legal system created in the OT, so the eating of pork was no longer a sin. But for the Jew, raised with this rule, and being ingrained, it wasn't a big deal if they choose to keep kosher.Of course the Bible also prevented this from becoming a 'get out of sin free' card. It also commands us that to him who considers something to be sin, to him it is sin. For me I got sober 6 years before becoming saved, so drinking or doing drugs is a sin for me. Doesn't matter that I believe I am delivered from my addiction, for me to drink is to sin. I also bear a responsibility to the people in my life that consider it sin for me to drink, my parents, my unsaved sober friends. So for me to drink because I believe I am delivered, would cause them to stumble, or be hurt. This I am told not to do. I order wine for my wife, sit with buddies who drink beer while we play poker etc, and I hold no feelings of them having any issues with it, it is a personal sin issue for me, and so I obey the command to place my brother's needs over my own.That and snort coke on weekends to take the edge off.

[Randy Reed 0]

I agree it's not as easy as I made it sound, which is why it always comes down to "only God knows". I just think it's a lot easier to make a judgment call as a human from the outside looking in than some religious people would like to make it. The moral of the issue is the mind is fascinating and I need a new family.

I'm thinking Sal would like your 2nd sis's phone number.

[crowTrobot 2]

I love these parts of the Bible, they show such a deepness in our lives that the people like crow can never understand with their shallow understanding.

i understand perfectly that you are making shallow excuses for the obvious fact that your supposed objective moral standard is highly subjective.

[SweetDee 0]

I haven't even bothered to pay attention to SweetDee yet, and this isn't going to help, but it does bring up an interesting theological situation.I believe that the same act by two different people can be a sin for one and not for the other.

This is what I was saying. I don't think it's as black and white as most believe it is.

[SweetDee 0]

Ok, let's go with the abortion things. Assuming that abortion is a sin:Woman 1: Is like your stepsister. Is wracked with guilt and feels like an evil human being. Is bordering on madness because of crossing her personal line into the abyss.Woman 2: Is like the woman you dated. Has had 4 abortions and feels fine about it. No big deal.As far as I can tell, you're saying that W1 can never repent, because she has crossed her line into the realm of evil, and her mind is not capable of, etc. W2 has not crossed her personal line, and therefore still has full ability to understand repentence and forgiveness, etc. This seems backwards to me.

What it comes down to is that actions as a human being can I believe end up limiting what God can do, which is probably why it seems backward, and why it probably doesn't get said in that way, because God should have no limits. There is also a good chance that my understanding is off. I am willing to learn. I really wanted to maybe talk some poker strategy on this site but I don't see to many threads containing that that are all that interesting. This site seems to be more about everything else, good MMA thread, good entertainment threads, etc.

[Balloon guy 158]

i understand perfectly that you are making shallow excuses for the obvious fact that your supposed objective moral standard is highly subjective.

Sometimes I try to use lofty comments when the topic is over my head too.This is my attempt to bond with you.

[SweetDee 0]

I'm thinking Sal would like your 2nd sis's phone number.

Well, she can't take phone calls but I am sure she would appreciate letters. Haven't spoken with her since the sale went bad. I have seen the kids, though, and they are doing well.

[brvheart 1,752]

Of course the Bible also prevented this from becoming a 'get out of sin free' card. It also commands us that to him who considers something to be sin, to him it is sin. For me I got sober 6 years before becoming saved, so drinking or doing drugs is a sin for me. Doesn't matter that I believe I am delivered from my addiction, for me to drink is to sin. I also bear a responsibility to the people in my life that consider it sin for me to drink, my parents, my unsaved sober friends. So for me to drink because I believe I am delivered, would cause them to stumble, or be hurt. This I am told not to do. I order wine for my wife, sit with buddies who drink beer while we play poker etc, and I hold no feelings of them having any issues with it, it is a personal sin issue for me, and so I obey the command to place my brother's needs over my own.

SUCKS TO BE YOU, WEAKER BROTHER! (sips his 12 year old scotch)(I only make this joke, because I don't believe you to actually be a weaker brother.)

[Balloon guy 158]

SUCKS TO BE YOU, WEAKER BROTHER! (sips his 12 year old scotch)(I only make this joke, because I don't believe you to actually be a weaker brother.)

NOOO...SUCKS TO BE YOU ( pours out a 15 year old scotch because I want the bottle for a prop for my business )( I only make this joke because I used to have money and most people have no idea how broke I am now )

[brvheart 1,752]

( I only make this joke because I used to have money and most people have no idea how broke I am now )

Is that why you haven't hired me?

[speedz99 145]

( I only make this joke because I used to have money and most people have no idea how broke I am now )

I assume it's hard to find parties in need of extravagant balloon displays IN THIS ECONOMY.