Forgiveness

[dna4ever 2]

This subject was brought up over beers this weekend.A week or two ago a guy here got executed in Nashville for 3 early 80's murders of a 2 men and a child.Over his near 30 year stint in prison he came to find the Lord.He publicly asked the Lord to forgive him for his sins during his last words.Is he in Heaven now?2nd part ... Can a serial killer kill someone every night and ask for forgiveness each night then wash, rinse and repeat the same said sin with said request for the Lord's forgiveness and still be invited past the Pearly Gates?

[JoeyJoJo 18]

This subject was brought up over beers this weekend.A week or two ago a guy here got executed in Nashville for 3 early 80's murders of a 2 men and a child.Over his near 30 year stint in prison he came to find the Lord.He publicly asked the Lord to forgive him for his sins during his last words.Is he in Heaven now?

Obviously working on the assumption that there is a heaven and the way to heaven is how the Bible says it is...then yes.

2nd part ... Can a serial killer kill someone every night and ask for forgiveness each night then wash, rinse and repeat the same said sin with said request for the Lord's forgiveness and still be invited past the Pearly Gates?

The Christian answer to this is that he does not truly believe in Christ and that God knows what is really in his heart, i.e. you can't lie your way into Heaven.

[dna4ever 2]

The Christian answer to this is that he does not truly believe in Christ and that God knows what is really in his heart, i.e. you can't lie your way into Heaven.

So you are saying that God interprets the difference between genuine and disingenuous requests for forgiveness?

[JoeyJoJo 18]

So you are saying that God interprets the difference between genuine and disingenuous requests for forgiveness?

Sort of.It's not really about asking forgiveness for specific sins. Like if you commit some act of sin and don't ask for forgiveness for it and then die, that doesn't keep you out of heaven. What they mean by asking forgiveness is the act of "accepting Christ as your savior." Recognizing that you are a sinner and that only through Jesus can you come to heaven. Somebody who truly believes this isn't going to go out and murder someone every day.

[LongLiveYorke 38]

It's pretty clear that, if you're actually sorry, you'll be let into heaven.There's no rule that says you can't get into heaven if you claim to be sorry for a crime, commit the crime again, and then actually become sorry after the second crime.I mean, it's God, he knows how you actually feel. There's no "tricking" him.

[speedz99 145]

But the answer to your next question is, "Yes. A man who kills 173 people in cold blood and then finds christ in prison due to his fear of being executed will get into heaven, while someone who leads a perfectly moral life but is not christian won't get through the gates. The lord works in mysterious ways...and is very needy."

[JoeyJoJo 18]

But the answer to your next question is, "Yes. A man who kills 173 people in cold blood and then finds christ in prison due to his fear of being executed will get into heaven, while someone who leads a perfectly moral life but is not christian won't get through the gates. The lord works in mysterious ways...and is very needy."

The reason for finding Christ doesn't matter if you do, in fact, find Christ.Nobody lives a "perfectly" moral life.

[Randy Reed 0]

This subject was brought up over beers this weekend.A week or two ago a guy here got executed in Nashville for 3 early 80's murders of a 2 men and a child.Over his near 30 year stint in prison he came to find the Lord.He publicly asked the Lord to forgive him for his sins during his last words.Is he in Heaven now?2nd part ... Can a serial killer kill someone every night and ask for forgiveness each night then wash, rinse and repeat the same said sin with said request for the Lord's forgiveness and still be invited past the Pearly Gates?

I suppose absolution is in the eye of the beholder. I bet if you did a poll amongst christians the answers would be all over the place. It's obviously a personal issue with most people since the first thing that comes to mindis that it shouldn't have taken 30 years to put him to death but I digress. Christianity is based on stories and parables that lead people to draw vastly different conclusions to their meanings. Reality is you are asking people'sopinions but we'll obviously never really know.

[speedz99 145]

The reason for finding Christ doesn't matter if you do, in fact, find Christ.

I know, it was just an example of why it's kind of bogus.

Nobody lives a "perfectly" moral life.

I was just using an extreme to illustrate the point that the christian version of god cares more about what we believe than what we do. I can't tell if you're religious or just contrarian. Not that it matters, I suppose.

[JoeyJoJo 18]

I can't tell if you're religious or just contrarian. Not that it matters, I suppose.

Argumentative maybe?Nitpicker?Something like that.

[speedz99 145]

JoeyJoJo: Picking nits since 2009.

[brvheart 1,752]

This subject was brought up over beers this weekend.A week or two ago a guy here got executed in Nashville for 3 early 80's murders of a 2 men and a child.Over his near 30 year stint in prison he came to find the Lord.He publicly asked the Lord to forgive him for his sins during his last words.Is he in Heaven now?2nd part ... Can a serial killer kill someone every night and ask for forgiveness each night then wash, rinse and repeat the same said sin with said request for the Lord's forgiveness and still be invited past the Pearly Gates?

1st part - Everyone does wrong. There was a criminal being executed next to Jesus on the cross that reprimanded another criminal for harassing Jesus. Jesus said that he would be with him in paradise. So the answer is obviously, that yes, he very well could be in heaven after execution.___________________________________________________2nd part - Almost certainly not. If you have Jesus in your heart, your life will naturally produce good works, according to many Biblical sources, but primarily the book of James. 'Asking' for forgiveness isn't a free ticket to sin.Romans 6: 1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7because anyone who has died has been freed from sin. 8Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. 11In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace. 15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. 18You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness. 19I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness. 20When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.If you read that, then you have your answer from a Biblical standpoint.

It's pretty clear that, if you're actually sorry, you'll be let into heaven.There's no rule that says you can't get into heaven if you claim to be sorry for a crime, commit the crime again, and then actually become sorry after the second crime.I mean, it's God, he knows how you actually feel. There's no "tricking" him.

The reason for finding Christ doesn't matter if you do, in fact, find Christ.Nobody lives a "perfectly" moral life.

Wow... I think the Christian side of the forum has done a pretty good job explaining their side of this issue, as you guys were perfect in your explanation of 'our side'.

But the answer to your next question is, "Yes. A man who kills 173 people in cold blood and then finds christ in prison due to his fear of being executed will get into heaven, while someone who leads a perfectly moral life but is not christian won't get through the gates. The lord works in mysterious ways...and is very needy."

This is a very skewed version of the Biblical God, and general Biblical theology. 'Finding Christ' is free, but you certainly can't trick God. Killing 173 people will have consequences.

[speedz99 145]

This is a very skewed version of the Biblical God, and general Biblical theology. 'Finding Christ' is free, but you certainly can't trick God. Killing 173 people will have consequences.

I don't see how it's skewed. The mass murderer has honestly repented in his heart and accepts JC as his lord and savior. He's in, baby! Which is fine, I'm all about forgiveness. But it's tough to swallow when you think about the wide range of people that won't get in. That's all I'm saying.

[Balloon guy 158]

I don't see how it's skewed. The mass murderer has honestly repented in his heart and accepts JC as his lord and savior. He's in, baby! Which is fine, I'm all about forgiveness. But it's tough to swallow when you think about the wide range of people that won't get in. That's all I'm saying.

I agree it is a tough way to look at it, from the extremes.Jeffery Dahmer is reported to have converted, as did Ted Bundy. Neither of these make me want to use them as examples of how forgiving God can be. I also met a guy at work years ago and we were talking about forgiveness and he started crying and said he couldn't be forgiven because of the things he had done in Vietnam. I told him of the story of Paul, who was actively going out and killing Christians and how God forgave him.I like to refer to the section of Matthew where Jesus says that heaven is the place created for us, where hell was a place created for satan and the angels that rebelled against God. We are supposed to go to heaven, but we get to hell by choice, not because God has placed a difficult restriction on forgiveness. How many people get all upset for Christians telling them about heaven and hell? How would their anger at being told appear on judgment day?As far as the second part of DNA's post, I was trying to figure out if I was really saved early in my walk with Christ, and the one thing that I noticed in my life was that I had a desire to please God just to please Him. Not to be rewarded here or in heaven, not to show off etc, but just because I now had a great desire to thank Him through my obedience. That alone was the one thing about my life that I can point to to know that I have changed and my life is born again. As such when I sin I am not doing it without conscience thought, but with embarrassment of my weakness. I cannot imagine I could go back to full on life of sin without restrictions.

[CaneBrain 95]

But the answer to your next question is, "Yes. A man who kills 173 people in cold blood and then finds christ in prison due to his fear of being executed will get into heaven, while someone who leads a perfectly moral life but is not christian won't get through the gates. The lord works in mysterious ways...and is very needy."

Yeah, if his neediness had manifested itself in a "everyone has to come tell me how great I am on Wednesday around 2pm every week" kind of way I think everyone could live with it. But having to tell him how great he is on the weekend? Selfish.

[speedz99 145]

Jeffery Dahmer is reported to have converted, as did Ted Bundy. Neither of these make me want to use them as examples of how forgiving God can be. I also met a guy at work years ago and we were talking about forgiveness and he started crying and said he couldn't be forgiven because of the things he had done in Vietnam. I told him of the story of Paul, who was actively going out and killing Christians and how God forgave him.

I like this as an example of when religion is a good thing to have around.

[Balloon guy 158]

Yeah, if his neediness had manifested itself in a "everyone has to come tell me how great I am on Wednesday around 2pm every week" kind of way I think everyone could live with it. But having to tell him how great he is on the weekend? Selfish.

This from the guy who can't push an elevator button on Saturdays? ( if he was Kosher )

[Balloon guy 158]

I like this as an example of when religion is a good thing to have around.

I give a pass to all guys who served in Vietnam about almost everything.

[LongLiveYorke 38]

Wow... I think the Christian side of the forum has done a pretty good job explaining their side of this issue, as you guys were perfect in your explanation of 'our side'.

Nah, the answer is obvious to anyone who read the passage that you alluded to about the murderer on the cross next to Jesus. So, really, you have to thank my few years of Sunday school and several schools asking me to read parts of the bible as "literature."

[Balloon guy 158]

Nah, the answer is obvious to anyone who read the passage that you alluded to about the murderer on the cross next to Jesus. So, really, you have to thank my few years of Sunday school and several schools asking me to read parts of the bible as "literature."

I thought maybe you had heard this song

[SweetDee 0]

This subject was brought up over beers this weekend.A week or two ago a guy here got executed in Nashville for 3 early 80's murders of a 2 men and a child.Over his near 30 year stint in prison he came to find the Lord.He publicly asked the Lord to forgive him for his sins during his last words.Is he in Heaven now?2nd part ... Can a serial killer kill someone every night and ask for forgiveness each night then wash, rinse and repeat the same said sin with said request for the Lord's forgiveness and still be invited past the Pearly Gates?

This would bug me if this were true. As I understand it from what I have learned about God and the bible, we serve God with our minds. A man who can commit these types of acts generally has a mind that is, for lack of better words, gone. A semblance of himself is there but he is basically broken. He still is a walking, talking flesh and blood human being but lacks the ability to make that kind of commitment to God. If he lived 5 more minutes he is just as likely to say "Hey, look at that guard. I would like to rape her and kill her, that would be sweet." Nothing has actually changed in the mind itself. As for the second question, I believe that's a no as well, as I understand it repentance is necessary. A repeating of the offense would be a clear demonstration of a lack of repentance. That being said, at the end of the day only God can know the heart and mind, so who am I to say? That is one of the things that bothers me about the bible, not quite as black and white as I would personally like it to be. This thread is much nicer.

[speedz99 145]

This would bug me if this were true. As I understand it from what I have learned about God and the bible, we serve God with our minds. A man who can commit these types of acts generally has a mind that is, for lack of better words, gone. A semblance of himself is there but he is basically broken. He still is a walking, talking flesh and blood human being but lacks the ability to make that kind of commitment to God. If he lived 5 more minutes he is just as likely to say "Hey, look at that guard. I would like to rape her and kill her, that would be sweet." Nothing has actually changed in the mind itself.

So what's the line you believe can't be crossed and that person still have a mind that's capable of repentence? I'll cut to the chase...it's impossible to pick such a line without some intense areas of gray that come back to the fact that only god knows how we truly feel. Which means that yes, if Hitler lived out his life in Argentina after faking his death and truly felt horrible about what he did and fully accepted Jesus, etc., he would be accepted into heaven. Whether or not you personally think he'd be capable of that is kind of beside the point, right? You know, if I believed in christianity, which I don't. Just stating how I'm pretty sure the whole thing is supposed to work.

[SweetDee 0]

So what's the line you believe can't be crossed and that person still have a mind that's capable of repentence? I'll cut to the chase...it's impossible to pick such a line without some intense areas of gray that come back to the fact that only god knows how we truly feel. Which means that yes, if Hitler lived out his life in Argentina after faking his death and truly felt horrible about what he did and fully accepted Jesus, etc., he would be accepted into heaven. Whether or not you personally think he'd be capable of that is kind of beside the point, right? You know, if I believed in christianity, which I don't. Just stating how I'm pretty sure the whole thing is supposed to work.

I (think) the answer to this is something most people will never come close to knowing the exact moment, meaning, most people have lines they just don't cross. Meaning, I may kill someone to protect a child from being hurt but I would not kill a child because it felt good and was sexually arousing. There is a line there where I believe we instinctively know there is no more humanity, just evil. There is no real depth to this, you just know it, in your mind you know that this is evil and can only end in evil. Just my 2 cents.

[speedz99 145]

Never mind...someone else take this, please.

[SweetDee 0]

But what you're describing doesn't even require forgiveness. Are you saying that god doesn't forgive those who do evil at any point in their lives?

No. I am saying that some evil requires one to give themselves over to something else first, and when that is done there is no turning back. The mind can never be anything but evil from that point on. We see this alot in cases like child molesters, this is why things like chemical castration is actually done. The mind cannot be repaired in and of itself, so one must trick the body with medication to stop what the mind thinks. Take away the restraints and the molestation begins anew. God would forgive if they were capable of asking for forgiveness and were actually repentant, but they are not. They can't be. That's why I said what I said about instinctively knowing where the line is. Dahmer, if released, would have been chowing down on people within days. He had no choice in the matter, he was no longer master of his domain.