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Over Pair Facing An Overbet Shove


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Ok so not a ton of reads on villain, bubble bursted 2 players ago. Am I deep enough to get away from this hand? Or is a shove 100% right. 16 people left in$1 90 person SNG MTT. Oh and by the way if it makes a difference im 6th biggest stack and would be 9th if i folded to the overbet. That is kind of why I am regretting the shove slightly, I had been super grinding for about an hour and was hoping to grind my way onto the final table. Most of the players kind of sucked so had i folded, I feel maybe i could have grinded myself back to a decent stack. or have I become the ultimate nit??Full Tilt Poker $1 + $0.10 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t400/t800 Blinds + t100 - 8 players - View hand 402314The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History ConverterHero (MP2): t20130 M = 10.06CO: t7780 M = 3.89BTN: t26795 M = 13.40SB: t21110 M = 10.55BB: t19470 M = 9.73UTG: t24715 M = 12.36UTG+1: t9285 M = 4.64MP1: t6020 M = 3.01Pre Flop: (t2000) Hero is MP2 with J :club: J :5c3 folds, Hero raises to t3600, 3 folds, BB calls t2800Flop: (t8400) 3 :3h T :ts 2 :4h(2 players)BB bets t15770 all in, Hero ?????In hind sight i was just praying for him to have A10 but to massively overbet that is a bit of a stretch

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What's with the ~5x open? Is that your standard open? When I see that, I immediately think JJ or QQ. I don't play the micro-stakes tourneys so maybe this works for you. I'd be interested in your theory about it.As for the hand, it looks like an instacall. What exactly are you afraid of here? Probably some jackass that either hit top pair, diamond draw, or air that thinks he can get you to fold.

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What's with the ~5x open? Is that your standard open? When I see that, I immediately think JJ or QQ. I don't play the micro-stakes tourneys so maybe this works for you. I'd be interested in your theory about it.As for the hand, it looks like an instacall. What exactly are you afraid of here? Probably some jackass that either hit top pair, diamond draw, or air that thinks he can get you to fold.
also, call the bet
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I'm instacalling and seeing a lot of Ts and diamonds, and 66-99 and the ocassional set.
This. It's 99-44 A LOT. Donks like to stop and go here cause they cant play out of position and always put you on AK
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you should be calling here, you'll see a lot of diamonds, a lot of 10's, and a lot of random ass hands as well. you'll run into a set or overpair once in awhile, but not nearly as often as all the hands you beat.

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It's hard to put him on a set of 2's or 3's. If he has a set of 10's, that's just plain unlucky. It's also hard to put him on a weak Ace, which might give him both a diamond and straight draw (and Ace pair draw), so I'd certainly call, and hope for the best.

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What's with the ~5x open? Is that your standard open? When I see that, I immediately think JJ or QQ. I don't play the micro-stakes tourneys so maybe this works for you. I'd be interested in your theory about it.As for the hand, it looks like an instacall. What exactly are you afraid of here? Probably some jackass that either hit top pair, diamond draw, or air that thinks he can get you to fold.
Blinds and antes it was a pot sized open which was standard. And Villain had Q's but that is beside the point the thing is i think i was a little to hopeful to see just A10, and my open does look strong, from villains point of view he saw me calling because i had been so tight and would have a range of similar hands to him. Also, i was suprised by the cold call pre with Q's i was expecting a 3 bet due to us being plenty deep
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I strongly disagree, this is QQ like NEVER.
I respectfully disagree. When some players see a strong raise, they will flat to see a flop and shove lowball flops like this with QQ and even KK at times. AK is just as likely, but this is probably 77-99, with the occasional TT.I'm calling anyway.
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The only problem here is a lot of you are assuming that a 5x open indicates strength, when often it does just the opposite.
What pops into your head when someone 5x-opens?For me, it is this: "Wow! That bet looks like a good hand that doesn't want to get called but will also not fold. Something like JJ or AK."
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The only problem here is a lot of you are assuming that a 5x open indicates strength, when often it does just the opposite.
I actually beg to differ sort of. I think weak/inexperienced players will actually do this with stronger hands, just because they try to "protect" their strong hands. I've seen this a ton where they will raise big from EP, basically because they don't understand the concept of value, or the concept of poker really.On the other hand, there definitely are a bunch of players that just throw 5bb in with any small pair because "ZOMG, I HAS 2 MATCHING CARDS", or "ZOMG, ITS SUITED".
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What pops into your head when someone 5x-opens?For me, it is this: "Wow! That bet looks like a good hand that doesn't want to get called but will also not fold. Something like JJ or AK."
From where Hero opened, I typically put Villain on a range of 77-JJ, KJ, KQ, AJ, AQ. Never QQ+ and never AK. If the 5x open had come from EP, then I would be more apt to include the premiums in villain's range. Once you get to MP villains typically stop thinking "omgz i has KK/AA and I don't want everyone to stay in and suck out on me...RAISE 5X" and start thinking "omgz i has KK/AA and I don't want the rest of these guys to just fold, so let's not raise too much."
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From where Hero opened, I typically put Villain on a range of 77-JJ, KJ, KQ, AJ, AQ. Never QQ+ and never AK. If the 5x open had come from EP, then I would be more apt to include the premiums in villain's range. Once you get to MP villains typically stop thinking "omgz i has KK/AA and I don't want everyone to stay in and suck out on me...RAISE 5X" and start thinking "omgz i has KK/AA and I don't want the rest of these guys to just fold, so let's not raise too much."
Good point. Usually, I see the 5x open from early position. I don't really remember the last time I saw someone do it in middle/late position like this and I really don't know what to think of it now. I think the more important point here is that this is the standard open for this player, meaning that this range is now much wider than if I saw someone whose standard open is 3x do this. I suppose that if I were at this table and noticed that this was his standard open, it gives me a ton of incentive to 3-bet shove wide or to stop-n-go. But, on the next level, if I knew that he knew this, he would then adjust his opening range to like TT+, AQ+ to compensate. So now, villain is probably calling with JJ/QQ/AK and raising KK/AA. So, your JJ beat nothing because he's probably not open-shoving AK since he's not doing it preflop. Looks like a fold.
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I think the more important point here is that this is the standard open for this player, meaning that this range is now much wider than if I saw someone whose standard open is 3x do this. I suppose that if I were at this table and noticed that this was his standard open, it gives me a ton of incentive to 3-bet shove wide or to stop-n-go. But, on the next level, if I knew that he knew this, he would then adjust his opening range to like TT+, AQ+ to compensate. So now, villain is probably calling with JJ/QQ/AK and raising KK/AA. So, your JJ beat nothing because he's probably not open-shoving AK since he's not doing it preflop. Looks like a fold.
This is kind of what was going through my head, and I keep kind of going back and forth on this (but I think the problem is im flying blind against the villain, with reads this becomes so much easier). Oh and remember guys a 3x open gets zero fold equity when there is 2.5 BB in the pot to begin with.
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As I said before...the same sort of situation has happened to me several times. Overpairs DO show up quite a bit, even with you open raising so late. I'm not saying I fold either, but I've ran up against an overpair here almost as often as tptk or a smaller pp.

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This is kind of what was going through my head, and I keep kind of going back and forth on this (but I think the problem is im flying blind against the villain, with reads this becomes so much easier). Oh and remember guys a 3x open gets zero fold equity when there is 2.5 BB in the pot to begin with.
I don't really agree with that statement. Besides, with JJ, I'm not really looking to fold everyone out. Let's say you raise to 2000 and get flatted by the BB as you did. Now I think you can call more easily because his range is no longer JJ+. Obviously in this case it wouldn't have mattered but I like to encourage idiots to shove over the top of my preflop opens. Making it just 2000 makes your open look much less strong and you'll get shoved on by AT, 55, etc.Plus, if you decide to fold on the flop, you only lost your 2000 instead of almost twice that. Just a matter a opinion of style, I guess. I just think it would be hard to win a tournament if I never got called by worse when holding JJ.
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I have played in quite a few of these....and in my experience.....this is QQ A LOT. 99% of the time, villain reraises preflop with kk and aa, but a lot of times will just call with QQ, and shoving on a non K or A board.
I strongly disagree, this is QQ like NEVER.
QQ is very rare in these spots. The blinds are skyhigh and people will show up with hands like A2, A3, A10, K10 and even AK/AQ from time to time. Villain wants us to fold so he can take home the pot. Of course this was not the case in this particular hand, but I'm still calling here. There's no way we get away from this hand with like 8-9M's behind unless we can soulread him and put him on an over PP or a set.
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