Thoughts On How I Played This Hand

[rbakken2504 0]

Since i've decided to play a good portion of the FTOPS events, ive been donking around a lot in some of the lower tournies, to kick off the MTT rust and this particular hand i played has been bugging me...Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em Tournament, 600/1200 Blinds 150 Ante (9 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comUTG (t25796)UTG+1 (t42254)MP1 (t17892)MP2 (t16155)MP3 (t9058)CO (t13650)Button (t36727)SB (t68446)Hero (BB) (t72679)Hero's M: 23.07Preflop: Hero is BB with A, J1 fold, UTG+1 bets t3600, 6 folds, Hero calls t2400Flop: (t9150) J, 9, 5(2 players)Hero checks, UTG+1 bets t7200, Hero calls t7200Turn: (t23550) 6(2 players)Hero checks, UTG+1 bets t31304 (All-In)Thoughts on all streets, and what is optimal for Hero as played?

[rjf826 0]

I'm not really a big fan of AJ OOP, especially against an EP raiser. I would like to know what your read is on this player before this hand comes up. If he has been aggressive and raising a lot, I am more willing to call and subsequently go to the wall with AJ if it hits the flop. If he is a decent, straightforward player or a rock, I am probably just folding preflop. If this is the type of player we are facing, what do we really want to hit? If we hit the ace, we are only ahead if he has KK, QQ, JJ etc, and we are probably not getting action from those hands. The same is true of hitting the jack here, especially with the way the hand ends up playing. Since we did call and take off the flop, I don't mind calling the c-bet (again, a read on the player helps in determining whether or not this is actually reasonable). I will say that I have seen weak players make much smaller c-bets than this when they see this flop with AK/AQ/1010. Once we get to the turn, the shove looks more like a "protect the hand" bet (given the size of the flop bet). Specific read on the player not withstanding, I am okay folding on this turn and looking for a better spot with our above average stack.

[viva la cam 0]

For me i think its hard to say, cuz like rjf826 said.. i would like to kno how that guy has been playin... whats his style, and if you have noticed how he bets with hands like AK/AQ post flop when he misses... I think you were ahead putting him on AQ/Ak or even like 10s just because of the all in move but its a hard call with that many chips, so I would have had to been playin with him for a lil bit.... not a bad fold by any means

[rrumsey 0]

A.) don't check turn, it lets possible nut semi draws push hardB.) ugh! i mean do you really think he has a set of 9's or an overpair? Ugh need some readsBy the book i would say this is a fold but i really hate doing it,.. idk reads?

[rbakken2504 0]

A.) don't check turn, it lets possible nut semi draws push hardB.) ugh! i mean do you really think he has a set of 9's or an overpair? Ugh need some readsBy the book i would say this is a fold but i really hate doing it,.. idk reads?

I dont have any reads on the player, he was new to the table....Why would I bet this turn? If I bet and he shoves, im pretty well pot stuck.I really like RJF's thinking in this hand, as I was also seriously considering folding this pf, because it was an EP raise and i have no reads on the player

[viva la cam 0]

A.) don't check turn, it lets possible nut semi draws push hardB.) ugh! i mean do you really think he has a set of 9's or an overpair? Ugh need some readsBy the book i would say this is a fold but i really hate doing it,.. idk reads?

Thats how i feel lol... ugh ha ha wait i call lol

[Luke00016 0]

Against a new player, no reads, I would also say this is a questionable PF call. You're not in any hurry to play a big pot against another medium'ish stack and will be forced to play OOP against an EP raiser.As played, the turn bet is sick but it's got to be a fold. EP raiser is betting strong 2 streets and is frankly telling you he's not afraid of the jack. I think you're always beat here by an overpair expecting to get paid off by top pair. You might be catching someone not willing to give up on TT, 88, or 77, but without reads that isn't a shot I'm willing to take at your chip stack.

[Darth Maple 0]

Since i've decided to play a good portion of the FTOPS events, ive been donking around a lot in some of the lower tournies, to kick off the MTT rust and this particular hand i played has been bugging me...Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em Tournament, 600/1200 Blinds 150 Ante (9 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comUTG (t25796)UTG+1 (t42254)MP1 (t17892)MP2 (t16155)MP3 (t9058)CO (t13650)Button (t36727)SB (t68446)Hero (BB) (t72679)Hero's M: 23.07Preflop: Hero is BB with A, J1 fold, UTG+1 bets t3600, 6 folds, Hero calls t2400Flop: (t9150) J, 9, 5(2 players)Hero checks, UTG+1 bets t7200, Hero calls t7200Turn: (t23550) 6(2 players)Hero checks, UTG+1 bets t31304 (All-In)Thoughts on all streets, and what is optimal for Hero as played?

I'm a nit and fold pre-flop but on a Jack high flop with AJ you just can't be calling, you have to raise and find out where you're at.

[Brian Aka Brian 0]

With no reads on Utg+1 i don't mind calling in the BB with Ajo Flop : Like check calling with top pair top kickerTurn : When air hits i like to lead out with a bet of 12k to 14k unless we are putting him on aces or kings then we should have folded on the flop.As for his allin shove on the turn i put him on complete air trying to push off a weak pair id insta call.

[rbakken2504 0]

I'm a nit and fold pre-flop but on a Jack high flop with AJ you just can't be calling, you have to raise and find out where you're at.

As ive said before in this thread, leading out the turn is a pointless play...id be essentially pot stuck to his reraise...and furthermore it doesnt gain me any value, as the villain is still likely shoving hands that beat me, and possibly a few that dont.Checking gives me the same information as betting does, and i dont lose value from a hand like 1010.But i do like the folding of AJ preflop most of the time to an EP raiser with no reads...i literally said to myself as i hit the call button preflop.."i have a feeling this hand is gonna get me in trouble"

[Darth Maple 0]

As ive said before in this thread, leading out the turn is a pointless play...id be essentially pot stuck to his reraise...and furthermore it doesnt gain me any value, as the villain is still likely shoving hands that beat me, and possibly a few that dont.Checking gives me the same information as betting does, and i dont lose value from a hand like 1010.But i do like the folding of AJ preflop most of the time to an EP raiser with no reads...i literally said to myself as i hit the call button preflop.."i have a feeling this hand is gonna get me in trouble"

I may be missing your point, but I never once said to lead on turn.

[rbakken2504 0]

I may be missing your point, but I never once said to lead on turn.

My bad...i was tired and thought your post said lead the turn...but raising the flop would also pretty much pot stick...

[Nashtak 0]

Am i the only one who finds calling with AJo from the BB to a raise of 3BBs to be totally reasonable? The pot is initially 3150, add his raise of 3600 and your left to call 2400 for a pot of 6750 (2.8 to 1) with AJo. It's not because AJ is often overrated by rookies that you, on the other hand, have to underrate it. It's decent enough to call with those odds. If you really are folding anything but AA, KK, QQ, AKo and AQ suited in this spot with the big stack with BB, then this would have to be a leak IMO.And i don't agree with the flop play neither. You have no reads on your opponent so you can't just check in case he has an overpair (way to weak). Check-calling leaves you in the same spot as leading out with less information and less fold equity + you may get [semi-]bluffed out. If he raises you, you can just fold, losing the same amount of chips, while being certain you were beat.You got yourself in a tough spot by trying to stay away from a tough spot yet it didn't save you a chip.

[rbakken2504 0]

Am i the only one who finds calling with AJo from the BB to a raise of 3BBs to be totally reasonable? The pot is initially 3150, add his raise of 3600 and your left to call 2400 for a pot of 6750 (2.8 to 1) with AJo. It's not because AJ is often overrated by rookies that you, on the other hand, have to underrate it. It's decent enough to call with those odds. If you really are folding anything but AA, KK, QQ, AKo and AQ suited in this spot with the big stack with BB, then this would have to be a leak IMO.And i don't agree with the flop play neither. You have no reads on your opponent so you can't just check in case he has an overpair (way to weak). Check-calling leaves you in the same spot as leading out with less information and less fold equity + you may get [semi-]bluffed out. If he raises you, you can just fold, losing the same amount of chips, while being certain you were beat.You got yourself in a tough spot by trying to stay away from a tough spot yet it didn't save you a chip.

I'm not saying you should always fold AJ to an EP raiser, but most of the time against an unknown you should because of reverse implied odds.As for the flop, if i lead out, and he raises, than what do i do? His raising range on the flop (especially since im taking the lead away from him) is bigger than his two barreling range. In this spot I gain more information from check calling, than i do from taking the lead. The chances of me getting (semi)bluffed on a flop bet are greater than someone firing another bet on the turn

[Tehtoe 3]

I'm a nit and fold pre-flop but on a Jack high flop with AJ you just can't be calling, you have to raise and find out where you're at.

lol...raising/betting for "info" is atrocious and should never be done. You bet or raise for value or to bluff, nothing more.

[Darth Maple 0]

lol...raising/betting for "info" is atrocious and should never be done. You bet or raise for value or to bluff, nothing more.

I agree but its not totally finding out where we're at, we have top pair top kicker. EP raiser is going to continuation bet like 90% of the time. So you say check-call and let AK and AQ hit? OK I get it now.

[Tehtoe 3]

I agree but its not totally finding out where we're at, we have top pair top kicker. EP raiser is going to continuation bet like 90% of the time. So you say check-call and let AK and AQ hit? OK I get it now.

You said to raise to find out where you're at; if you think AK and AQ is a high likelihood then you should c/c and let them spaz out? lol @ being scared of letting them "hit", that'll only lead to losing plays.

[babylondonks 5]

I agree but its not totally finding out where we're at, we have top pair top kicker. EP raiser is going to continuation bet like 90% of the time. So you say check-call and let AK and AQ hit? OK I get it now.

Yup exactly, we shouldn't c/c because of the 6% of the time AQ or AK hit the turn. Instead we should CRAI to make sure he folds out all hands we beat and calls with everything we lose to. Yes sir. I mean, if we check call, it's possible that pocket tens could hit too! I mean how stupid would you feel if you check called, and then a turn came the ten, and then we check/called again and he had pocket tens! That would be crazy!

[Darth Maple 0]

You said to raise to find out where you're at; if you think AK and AQ is a high likelihood then you should c/c and let them spaz out? lol @ being scared of letting them "hit", that'll only lead to losing plays.

Dude, your a tourny player and well respected so trust me I'm listening to your advice. Truly, what do you recommend on this hand?

[HighwayStar 8]

check /shove flopcall turn he has QTdd

[Nashtak 0]

I'm not saying you should always fold AJ to an EP raiser, but most of the time against an unknown you should because of reverse implied odds.As for the flop, if i lead out, and he raises, than what do i do? His raising range on the flop (especially since im taking the lead away from him) is bigger than his two barreling range. In this spot I gain more information from check calling, than i do from taking the lead. The chances of me getting (semi)bluffed on a flop bet are greater than someone firing another bet on the turn

I don't understand how you can get more info out of check calling than taking the lead here. Wouldn't his betting range be really similar to his raising range + the c-bets?If you take the lead and he raises you, then you can fold basically knowing you were 2nd best, and actually save some chips (unless you were gonna bet over 7.2k). Hey, you could have taken down the pot right there too. Not like your pricing yourself out, you barely have any outs. An Ace could be a death card(considering you are giving him such a tight image). Just figure out where you stand now and limit your loss IMO. You will probably be called by better hands than yours but you still don't want hands like AQ, AK, 10s, 9s and 8s to probe-bet you out of the hand, no matter how low are the odds that they draw out on you.If anything, we can agree that if you are gonna play so weak with this flop, then yes you should have a folded preflop. After reading his books, Dan Harrington would probably wack my fingers with a wooden stick for folding there preflop but then again, he seems to advocate betting for information which is apparently a terrible play now.

[rbakken2504 0]

I don't understand how you can get more info out of check calling than taking the lead here. Wouldn't his betting range be really similar to his raising range + the c-bets?If you take the lead and he raises you, then you can fold basically knowing you were 2nd best, and actually save some chips (unless you were gonna bet over 7.2k). Hey, you could have taken down the pot right there too. Not like your pricing yourself out, you barely have any outs. An Ace could be a death card(considering you are giving him such a tight image). Just figure out where you stand now and limit your loss IMO. You will probably be called by better hands than yours but you still don't want hands like AQ, AK, 10s, 9s and 8s to probe-bet you out of the hand, no matter how low are the odds that they draw out on you.If anything, we can agree that if you are gonna play so weak with this flop, then yes you should have a folded preflop. After reading his books, Dan Harrington would probably wack my fingers with a wooden stick for folding there preflop but then again, he seems to advocate betting for information which is apparently a terrible play now.

check calling is a far better play from an EV standpoiint than taking the lead....say you take the lead, not only is this widely known by even the worst of players as an weak bet, but he will likly raise with a hand that doesnt beat us or even worse fold a hand that doesnt beat us. Being that i have such a sticky hand against an unknown im trying to keep the pot small. And how in jesus would an ace be a death card for me???? that would be the perfect card on the turn for me, unless he had a set, which i think is very unlikely seeing he bet the flop on a pretty dry board. and if he has AK, AQ 10s etc and hits on the turn, good for him...im not scared of a small percentage play happening. What I am scared of is an overpair. A random player is gonna raise the flop with a weak hand more often than he is gonna follow up a c-bet with weak holdings in position.Betting for information i dont think is a bad play, but in this situation it doesnt apply, stealing the lead from somebody is seen by all as weak and gives you no more info than check calling.

[babylondonks 5]

Nashtak, say we give him some form of tight raising range. I'm bad at MTT's but let's say 77+, AJ+ and KQ, which according to my basic count is 95 combos of hands.If we donk out say 6k on that flop, he's folding every hand we beat, which I think is about 60 combos. So about 60% of the time we win 9k.If he raises and we raise/fold, he's raising about 25 combos for value and I'd venture another 10 as bluffs, so 40% of the time we lose 6k. This includes the times he's raising AJ and we choose to donk/fold or he spazz raises worse and we fold.So that's immediately what, a +3k position?If we c/c this flop instead, we have to assume that he's cbetting a pretty wide range of hands on such a dry board. I'd say almost his entire range.So we c/c 6k on that flop and then he checks back most turns and rivers with some showdown value, double barrels with air sometimes (but also runs into the nuts sometimes, so we're just going to assume that cancels out). Assuming he decides to randomly check back a few combos we'll say that 65% of the time we win $15k.It's obviously not that simple because he can barrel turns and rivers, bet his stack by the river with the nuts, etc. But just this quick calculation shows that we're much better off not to bet this flop basically ever when we flop TPTK. It considerably narrows his range and is loses us a ton of EV. donk/folding this flop is probably the easiest decision to make, because when we're raised we can be pretty sure we're beat, but that doesn't make it the best play.

[Nashtak 0]

Nashtak, say we give him some form of tight raising range. I'm bad at MTT's but let's say 77+, AJ+ and KQ, which according to my basic count is 95 combos of hands.If we donk out say 6k on that flop, he's folding every hand we beat, which I think is about 60 combos. So about 60% of the time we win 9k.If he raises and we raise/fold, he's raising about 25 combos for value and I'd venture another 10 as bluffs, so 40% of the time we lose 6k. This includes the times he's raising AJ and we choose to donk/fold or he spazz raises worse and we fold.So that's immediately what, a +3k position?If we c/c this flop instead, we have to assume that he's cbetting a pretty wide range of hands on such a dry board. I'd say almost his entire range.So we c/c 6k on that flop and then he checks back most turns and rivers with some showdown value, double barrels with air sometimes (but also runs into the nuts sometimes, so we're just going to assume that cancels out). Assuming he decides to randomly check back a few combos we'll say that 65% of the time we win $15k.It's obviously not that simple because he can barrel turns and rivers, bet his stack by the river with the nuts, etc. But just this quick calculation shows that we're much better off not to bet this flop basically ever when we flop TPTK. It considerably narrows his range and is loses us a ton of EV. donk/folding this flop is probably the easiest decision to make, because when we're raised we can be pretty sure we're beat, but that doesn't make it the best play.

I learned something today