need advice on this hand...

[jasonmason 0]

I was playing a home game earlier tonight, single table tourney with seven people, we're all friends, pays 1st and second gets their money back. I know most of the players and have a pretty good read on them, I'm definately one of the stronger 2-3 players in the game. One of my best friends is an aggressive loose player, probably the best player at the table, and likes to establish dominance early and pretty much run over people. He plays a wide variety of hands, and can really have suited connectors or a pocket pair or anything at anytime and he mixes it up really well with his bets. The guy could have any two cards at any time and I'm usually the only one that gives him any trouble because I feel that I know his style well.anyways, very early in the tourney maybe 10 minutes in, im dealt K-10 in late position. My friend raises to 6 in early position (blinds are 1-2 at this point, we start with 200), i call in late position and it goes 3 handed to the flop. Flop comes 4h-8s-10h, he bets 25 first to act, other guy folds, i think and I raise to 50. He comes over the top all in for about 150 more.We've been debating about the hand for awile. Would you call this bet?

[Guest XXEddie]

the only way I see you have the best hand is if he has Ax of hearts

[cardcore 0]

bump

[Vade 0]

Either push in on this flop or get out of the hand. Min-raising is not a good idea here. He bet a bit more then the pot, so what does that tell you?

[akishore 0]

1. don't call K-10 to a raise in late position, ESPECIALLY against a loose raiser. loose-aggressives tend to push their premium hands and their rag hands, and any premium hand has your K-10 dominated. if you figure that he's raising with rags (maybe you've seen him raise UTG with trash three rounds in a row), you need to re-raise to isolate. i would prefer folding. either way, calling is as weak as it gets.2. don't min-raise the flop. that doesn't give you any kind of information. a call could mean weakness since the price is right, or it could mean an incoming turn check-raise--you know nothing. a reraise could mean strength, or it could mean a bluff sensing weakness since all you raised was the minimum--again, you know nothing.3. you have a marginal hand in a no-limit situation. fold it to a big overbet (first 25 into a 20 pot, then 150 into a 120 pot) any day. even if you think you're good, you need to be correct MORE THAN 50% THE TIME to call--you can NOT be sure of this at all. you beat loose overbettors by folding repeatedly with marginal hands, encouraging their overbetting, and then calling them the one time it counts, when you have a strong hand or a monster.this is as easy a fold as it gets.aseem

[jasonmason 0]

Based on his style of play, I figured he would make that play holding most likely the following hands:IM AHEAD...Any two heartsQ-10, J-10, 9-108-x4-xStone cold bluffIM BEHIND...8-10I thought it was a possibility that he had the following hands but I don't think it's as likely based off of my read on him. I felt my raise of 25 represented a pair of 10s and he'd try to milk me for more chips instead of pushing me and scaring me away if he had any of these. Still it was a strong possibility, because he mixes his game up VERY well.A-AQ-QJ-J8-84-4My question is, with a fourth of my stack committed and an opportunity to cripple this guy and maybe knock him out, is it a bad call to risk my entire tournament with top pair? I thought it was a very good possibility that I had him outkicked or he was on the flush draw, and I could be ahead. Best case scenario for me, he still has live cards with a flsuh draw, But I could also be dominated.Does it pay to fold and have 130 to his 270ish and establish him as an early chip leader?

[akishore 0]

jason, i'm going to give you some very good advice that i got from smash when i posted a marginal NL HE situation and argued that it was a call when he said it was an easy fold.your reads aren't perfect. if they were, you'd be making millions a year playing in vegas. in NL HE, i wait for situations where i'm crushing my opponent if my read is correct, and i'm still decently ahead when my read is wrong.here, you're ahead if your read is right, and he's crushing you when your read is wrong.understand?aseem

[jasonmason 0]

I think my min-raise back was wrong. I should have pushed or folded.This guy plays the player more then the cards for sure. If he's betting to build a pot pre-flop and then makes a play at nearly every pot after the flop, I should fold my 10-K when I hit top pair?

[jasonmason 0]

Thanks for the advice- it definately is appreciated. But I did feel pretty strong about my read. I've played A LOT of poker with this guy. I thought like 85% im ahead. 10% he's got 10-8, 5% im dominated. Plus at that point I was already getting odds. I think my mistake was putting myself in that situation right after the flop though..

[akishore 0]

I think my min-raise back was wrong. I should have pushed or folded.This guy plays the player more then the cards for sure. If he's betting to build a pot pre-flop and then makes a play at nearly every pot after the flop, I should fold my 10-K when I hit top pair?

i'm not saying you should have necessarily folded; i'm just saying you shouldn't have min. raised.i also don't think you should have just pushed if you're not folding. that has way negative EV--you're only getting called when you're way behind. if he's a good player, he's not going to call off 175 chips on a flush draw or with overcards or middle pair, etc. when you're ahead, you get no value from it.i think you can raise this flop, but not minimum.i'm saying you should fold to the all-in after you raise the minimum. you have 55ish chips invested, that's 28 big blinds. you still have a deep enough stack left, 70 big blinds or so, right? assuming the structure isn't a crapshoot, you have time enough to recover.i still stand by my easy fold to the all-in. there are better spots. if you want to gamble and think you have his number, go ahead and call, but in a normal situation of this type, this is a definite fold.aseem

[jasonmason 0]

Take a stand or let the guy run over the table and bully everyone, including me? If I'm going to lay down top pair very strong kicker against him, what am I waiting for? If I don't make moves like this, let him take every pot I mix it up with him, when I **do** play back with a real real quality hand it's an easy fold for him...

[jasonmason 0]

If I raise any more then 25, I'm pot committing myself and essentially it's the same bet as an all in...

[akishore 0]

Take a stand or let the guy run over the table and bully everyone, including me? If I'm going to lay down top pair very strong kicker against him, what am I waiting for? If I don't make moves like this, let him take every pot I mix it up with him, when I **do** play back with a real real quality hand it's an easy fold for him...

listen, you can keep saying it's a call, but if you're not really going to listen to advice, it's not much use to post it on this forum.you can take a stand, but there are better spots to take a stand. if you were correct this one time, congratulations, but poker is a long-term game. more often than not, calling here (to the all-in after you min-raised) is a losing proposition.i'll re-quote myself, this is the meat of my advice:

i still stand by my easy fold to the all-in. there are better spots. if you want to gamble and think you have his number, go ahead and call, but in a normal situation of this type, this is a definite fold.

aseem

[Suited_Up 2]

Sounds like you made the call, and lost the hand, and now you want us to say it was the right play.

[jasonmason 0]

It's obvious I'm definding my call right now... I think I would play it the same way against this guy all the time. ANYONE else at the table or anyone I had no read on, easy fold. Cash game against this guy? painful fold but still the right move. I didn't want to give him an early chiplead and I thought I was ahead.I think where I'm really looking for advice is how to play this flop with a bet of 25 into me... folding is certainly an option but if I think I have the best hand what's the right move here? Is a min-raise too much to tie me to the hand if I'm gonna roll the dice and call him anyway? That's where I'm confused if I should just push here...

[akishore 0]

If I raise any more then 25, I'm pot committing myself and essentially it's the same bet as an all in...

the situation changes dramatically if you raise more than minimum.more often than not, a skilled LAG will reraise all-in to a min raise but think more carefully to a pot-sized raise.if he still reraises you all-in after you raise, say, 75 on top (to 100 straight), the decision is closer. you are more pot-committed, but he is also risking more knowing that you'll have decent odds to call a push, etc.if you raise to 100 straight there, or even to 75 straight or 85 straight, your opponent will really consider and realize he's beat, AND that you are pot committed and that he probably can't bluff you off.this is NOT that situation. once you raise the minimum and he pushes all-in, you've learned NOTHING. the raise is also an over-bet, so you have to be correct more than 50% of the time to call, which you CAN'T be sure of unless you make the best reads in the nation (in which case you should be in vegas raking in millions).if that doesn't do it for you, i don't know how to explain it any clearer.good luck,aseem

[cardcore 0]

I want to interject here as the other player in question.The outcome was the following, and I happen to agree with Aseem here.I hit middle pair and the flush draw with my A 8 of hearts. In my opinion, he made a horrid call, but a good call. The board ended up coming K 10 on the turn and river for the running full house, giving him the win and essentially knocking me out.If the situation was flipped, I personally would have laid his hand down after I pushed over his re-raise. I pushed because of the min-raise, and I would not have pushed if he raised me harder. I thought for sure I could induce a fold, even if he had top pair. It's an easy laydown for sure. If his raise had been larger, I most likely would not have came over the top. I probably would have called and folded the turn if it offered no help.If the situation is flipped, I fold every time. I wouldn't be comfortable risking all my chips on uncertainty at best.

[jasonmason 0]

I won the hand. He had A-8 hearts... The turn was a 10, gave me trips, and he hit the nut flush on the river, I got the boat with the king

[akishore 0]

It's obvious I'm definding my call right now... I think I would play it the same way against this guy all the time. ANYONE else at the table or anyone I had no read on, easy fold. Cash game against this guy? painful fold but still the right move. I didn't want to give him an early chiplead and I thought I was ahead.I think where I'm really looking for advice is how to play this flop with a bet of 25 into me... folding is certainly an option but if I think I have the best hand what's the right move here? Is a min-raise too much to tie me to the hand if I'm gonna roll the dice and call him anyway? That's where I'm confused if I should just push here...

if you're worried about getting outplayed, pushing is always an option.if you think you can take him on, raise to somewhere between 75 straight and 100 straight.aseem

[jasonmason 0]

hahah you signed up to FCPby the way I did knock you out on that hand.. There was nothing essential about it.I still think if you were in my shoes you wouldve called

[jasonmason 0]

What's there to outplay if I raise 75 or 100?.. I'd have less then 100 chips left and he would either fold or put me all in before the turn is dealt. At that point I'm pot committed and i'm ****ed whether I call him or not because I've established him as the chip leader even if I fold and if I call i'm probably behind.My initial thought with the min-raise was that he'd call and I'd push on the turn if it wasn't a heart.I think the only real options after the bet of 25 on the flop was push or fold. I could always call the 25 but why would I want to give a free card when I'm ahead?

[Chief 0]

Hey Jason, I play a lot of NL HE tournaments, short handed and big MTT, and here are my thoughts:Preflop action was fine.The min raise was a critical error. He is overbetting the pot here, and although this doesn't automatically represent extreme strength, he's got some sort of a hand here. He is not folding to your min raise.If you are going to raise, 75 is the magic number. But even then, all you have is tens with 2nd best kicker. Because of his play style, he could have a number of things - 2 pair, set, overpair, ten with better kicker, open ended with the flush draw on this flop.After your raised his 25, you committed yourself to seeing this hand to the end -- during the early stages -- of the tournament.There are better spots than this, I think.He in fact did have a good draw (pair and nut flush draw), and statistically is a slight favorite to you, 50.5%/49.5%. It's basically a coinflip.At the early stages of any tournament, don't be in such a rush to risk your tournament life on mediocre hands without good reads.Chief

[akishore 0]

my last post on this thread.summarizing and maybe a couple of new points...1. you have a marginal hand in a no-limit situation. fold it to a big overbet (first 25 into a 20 pot, then 150 into a 120 pot) any day. even if you think you're good, you need to be correct MORE THAN 50% THE TIME to call--you can NOT be sure of this at all. you beat loose overbettors by folding repeatedly with marginal hands, encouraging their overbetting, and then calling them the one time it counts, when you have a strong hand or a monster. 2. your reads aren't perfect. if they were, you'd be making millions a year playing in vegas. in NL HE, i wait for situations where i'm crushing my opponent if my read is correct, and i'm still decently ahead when my read is wrong. here, you're ahead if your read is right, and he's crushing you when your read is wrong.3. you can take a stand, but there are better spots to take a stand. if you were correct this one time, congratulations, but poker is a long-term game. more often than not, calling here (to the all-in after you min-raised) is a losing proposition.4. once you raise the minimum and he pushes all-in, you've learned NOTHING. the raise is also an over-bet, so you have to be correct more than 50% of the time to call, which you CAN'T be sure of unless you make the best reads in the nation (in which case you should be in vegas raking in millions).5. rethinking what i said, you should almost never push on this flop against a good player. you're only getting called when you're beat. raise to somewhere between 75-100 straight. if he re-raises all-in, re-think the situation.6. quoted directly from small stakes hold 'em by eddie miller: "The immediate results in poker are often divorced from your actions...The correct way to learn poker is to understand it theoretically, and make sure you made the correct play, regardless of the results." not to sound like a jerk, but it's pretty obvious that the results are enforcing your belief that you made a correct call. disregard them.good luck,aseem

[jasonmason 0]

Chief- Thanks for the stat.. I didn't realize that it was a coinflip. I put him on hearts OR a pair lower then me, and was only really worried about 10-8. Regardless, I'd still flip coins with him, especially early in the tournament. Against the remaining field, it's not arrogant for me to say the win is mine with 400 of the 1200 chips on the table. I wanted this guy out before he built a big stack.If I waited and tried to isolate, he'd chip away at me AND everyone else, and he'd have the chiplead by the time I took a bite out of him. If I pay 6 to see a flop and then fold when I hit the flop, when DO I call them. "The one time it counts". Okay... So I let him steal until I have a monster, letting him build a chiplead, then I raise him and he folds, I pick up a whole 25 chips and probably break even to where I was before he was stealing from me, because he sees I'm playing tight?My reads are not perfect but I felt very strongly about this one - Not because of any tells, just because of his style of play. Based on his past play, I was about 80% sure that he would not push in that scenario unless I was ahead. His bet SCREAMED the Brunson and he was semi-bluffing his flush draw or he got a piece of the flop and was overbetting it. He happened to have bothIf I bet 75-100 I'm essentially going all in. He won't call and see the turn, I **KNOW** he wouldn't do that. It's a fold or push situation for him, and I would have to call. There's nothing to re-think at that point. If I call, I know I'm behind but I have to chase because I wouldn't have enough chips and I've already given the guy the chiplead and made myself the shortstack.I think the 3 options after his 25 bet on the flop were fold/min-raise/push. The min-raise gives me the opportunity to re-think IF he just calls. He might just call the 25 (and probably should have with his flush draw) and then I could take it down on the turn or re-think if a scare card came out. If I bet more then the min-raise I'm losing my opportunity to get away from the hand if he lets me see the turn.Aki I respect your advice and I appreciate you taking the time but after thinking through this more I disagree with you and I stand by my play. I was happy with my play as soon as the cards were turned over even though there was a chance I could lose the hand. I think I played really really good poker tonight - especially because the game is more or less a cakewalk after eliminating this guy

[ofplayer 0]

When raising the minimum you are doing it for one reason: you want a read here. You are doing this for information not only as to what he'll do, but the facial and other tells you're getting from your opponent.If you get the read, do the math, and figure it out. Raising the minimum can be justified if you get a good quality read. But that requires getting that read. without a strong read, easy fold. But heck, if you got a read you can call with 10-3 here too most of the time...

Chief- Thanks for the stat.. I didn't realize that it was a coinflip. I put him on hearts OR a pair lower then me, and was only really worried about 10-8. Regardless, I'd still flip coins with him, especially early in the tournament. Against the remaining field, it's not arrogant for me to say the win is mine with 400 of the 1200 chips on the table. I wanted this guy out before he built a big stack.If I waited and tried to isolate, he'd chip away at me AND everyone else, and he'd have the chiplead by the time I took a bite out of him. If I pay 6 to see a flop and then fold when I hit the flop, when DO I call them. "The one time it counts". Okay... So I let him steal until I have a monster, letting him build a chiplead, then I raise him and he folds, I pick up a whole 25 chips and probably break even to where I was before he was stealing from me, because he sees I'm playing tight?My reads are not perfect but I felt very strongly about this one - Not because of any tells, just because of his style of play. Based on his past play, I was about 80% sure that he would not push in that scenario unless I was ahead. His bet SCREAMED the Brunson and he was semi-bluffing his flush draw or he got a piece of the flop and was overbetting it. He happened to have bothIf I bet 75-100 I'm essentially going all in. He won't call and see the turn, I **KNOW** he wouldn't do that. It's a fold or push situation for him, and I would have to call. There's nothing to re-think at that point. If I call, I know I'm behind but I have to chase because I wouldn't have enough chips and I've already given the guy the chiplead and made myself the shortstack.I think the 3 options after his 25 bet on the flop were fold/min-raise/push. The min-raise gives me the opportunity to re-think IF he just calls. He might just call the 25 (and probably should have with his flush draw) and then I could take it down on the turn or re-think if a scare card came out. If I bet more then the min-raise I'm losing my opportunity to get away from the hand if he lets me see the turn.Aki I respect your advice and I appreciate you taking the time but after thinking through this more I disagree with you and I stand by my play. I was happy with my play as soon as the cards were turned over even though there was a chance I could lose the hand. I think I played really really good poker tonight - especially because the game is more or less a cakewalk after eliminating this guy