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1 -2 Live No Limit Flop Nut Draw Against Several Bad Players


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1 -2 No Limit 10 handed at Harrah's New Orleans on an early Friday evening. Good times. Seat 4 (UTG) is a drunk entertaining guy, playing 90% of hands, showing me most every hand he is playing when I am not in the pot, bluffing with small 3 barrels, calling down lite, won a few big pots early and is sitting on about $350.Seat 6 is a CAG, (crazy Asian guy) who doesn't seem to know what he is doing, takes 30 sec-1 min for every decision, which is always a call or fold. No info on Seat 8, got check raised on the turn on a dry board three hands prior and laughed and folded, seemingly bluffing.I just sat down with $200. Hand:Hero in BB with Kd 3dSeat 4 (UTG) blind straddles to $4 (awesome!) Seats 5-10 call, button folds (awesome!) SB calls Hero calls,Flop (pot = $36)Ad 9c 7dSB ChecksI see Seat 4 reaching to arrange chips for a small bet, I decide to check to set up a big check raise. Seat 4 bets $15Seat 5 calls Seat 6 calls Seat 7 calls Seat 8 raises to $30Seats 9, 10, 2 foldPot = $126Hero ???

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Man I love tables like this. I would actually just call in this spot. The thing to keep in mind is this table offer a) little fold equity and B) players who will sheriff-call you once you've made the nuts. As such, there isn't a ton of value in trying to maximize small edges. Maximize big edges instead!We've got three options: fold, call, or all-in. Folding is clearly out of the question. You're being offered straight pot odds on a call and crazy-good implied odds. If you go all-in, I expect a bar ace is calling you, so you'll still need to make your flush to win. By calling, you make sure that smaller flush draws and straight draws call as well. And that's where the hand gets awesome, when you make your flush on the turn and someone comes along looking for their straight on the river anyway.Basically, given the pot size, we know we're committed to see the river. We don't pick up fold equity by raising here, so our goal becomes making our hand and then collecting a stupid-tax from all the people who never should've been in in the first place. Best way to collect that tax is to leave it cheap at this stage. If you miss the turn, they'll likely check to the bettor and he'll fire ~$50, which gives you straight-up pot odds again, and let's you save money by folding the river if you miss.Calling would be a terrible play at a tough table. But at this one, I think it's hugely +EV

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Man I love tables like this. I would actually just call in this spot. The thing to keep in mind is this table offer a) little fold equity and B) players who will sheriff-call you once you've made the nuts. As such, there isn't a ton of value in trying to maximize small edges. Maximize big edges instead!We've got three options: fold, call, or all-in. Folding is clearly out of the question. You're being offered straight pot odds on a call and crazy-good implied odds. If you go all-in, I expect a bar ace is calling you, so you'll still need to make your flush to win. By calling, you make sure that smaller flush draws and straight draws call as well. And that's where the hand gets awesome, when you make your flush on the turn and someone comes along looking for their straight on the river anyway.Basically, given the pot size, we know we're committed to see the river. We don't pick up fold equity by raising here, so our goal becomes making our hand and then collecting a stupid-tax from all the people who never should've been in in the first place. Best way to collect that tax is to leave it cheap at this stage. If you miss the turn, they'll likely check to the bettor and he'll fire ~$50, which gives you straight-up pot odds again, and let's you save money by folding the river if you miss.Calling would be a terrible play at a tough table. But at this one, I think it's hugely +EV
I definitely had the same thought, and called. Seat 4 then decides to raise to $80. Seat 6 called, everyone else folded to mePot = $256Stack = $166Now do I call and c/f a blank turn if I am not getting 4 to 1? Based on my knowledge of seat 4 his bet will be all in on the turn if I call flop check a non diamond turn. Do I have any FE by shoving? Maybe a bare ace folds? These guys are not thinking about pot odds, but will they see a raise of basically $100 as strong enough to fold an ace?
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uhm you may not have any fold equity. normally i would love to ship here but i could see a fold out, but we have decent odds to get are stack in at this point. so i almost wanna say flat and and shove blind on turn, or just push here. Call may keep every one in the pot just giving us better pot odds but normally i shoveagainst newbies an A high board usually means people have what?.... AN ACE! they aren't folding thinking "my kicker may not be good" or "a set". Maybe the Q high flush draw goes broke but we are not happy with this action but we still have a ton of equity against anything herei wish we could have called, seen our flush, and let weaker flushes go broke into usthe bigger leak would be to c/f missed flushes i think because we may be donking around with air so guess i say screw life and shove

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I definitely had the same thought, and called. Seat 4 then decides to raise to $80. Seat 6 called, everyone else folded to mePot = $256Stack = $166Now do I call and c/f a blank turn if I am not getting 4 to 1? Based on my knowledge of seat 4 his bet will be all in on the turn if I call flop check a non diamond turn. Do I have any FE by shoving? Maybe a bare ace folds? These guys are not thinking about pot odds, but will they see a raise of basically $100 as strong enough to fold an ace?
Well the nice thing is that if you call the additional $50, Pot is $306, stack is $116, so when he pushes on the turn you *will* be getting 4-to-1, even if seat 6 folds at that point.That said, I think you probably push all-in at this point. The pot is huge, you're already committed, and my guess is that they both will call your all-in. If the flush comes on the turn, one of them might be able to get away. If the board pairs on the turn, you're going to be tempted to fold, and that might or might not be the right play. And every once in awhile, you'll enter bizarro-land, with Seat 4 turning over QQ and seat 6 turning over a straight draw (or with both of them suddenly folding).
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Well the nice thing is that if you call the additional $50, Pot is $306, stack is $116, so when he pushes on the turn you *will* be getting 4-to-1, even if seat 6 folds at that point.That said, I think you probably push all-in at this point. The pot is huge, you're already committed, and my guess is that they both will call your all-in. If the flush comes on the turn, one of them might be able to get away. If the board pairs on the turn, you're going to be tempted to fold, and that might or might not be the right play. And every once in awhile, you'll enter bizarro-land, with Seat 4 turning over QQ and seat 6 turning over a straight draw (or with both of them suddenly folding).
Good points all, I'm not sure why I even posted this hand, as the more I think about it it's not all that interesting. The other only thing I could think of at the time was calling the flop, donking the turn all in on a blank and c/shoving a diamond, but it seems like more of a tournament line and it runs the risk of me possibly not getting paid off. Also not that many great bluff cards in the deck I don't think. Does my FE increase significantly on the turn? I did shove on the flop, both Seats 4 and 6 call.Turn Qh (thought it was a diamond and nearly lost it)Seat 4 goes all in for ~$100, Seat 6 calls River 4cSeat 4 turns over A-7 for two pair, Seat 6 turns over A-2 and says "chop it up"High ComedyBourbon St. still got a healthy dose of my money regardless Friday and Saturday.
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i mean a fold out can be a bug mistake with this hand we are simply looking to make the best out of a marginal spot. oh well you played it right

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If the Ad 9c 7d flop was instead Qd 9c 7d, what changes occur in the action?Would you call on the flop with a plan to shove all-in if a king or an ace fall? This combines possible scare cards with the possibility of getting the right price on the remainder of your stack. If a non-diamond king falls on the turn, and you shove, you have the possibility of it going fold-fold as it looks like JT.Any thoughts on this?

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If the Ad 9c 7d flop was instead Qd 9c 7d, what changes occur in the action?Would you call on the flop with a plan to shove all-in if a king or an ace fall? This combines possible scare cards with the possibility of getting the right price on the remainder of your stack. If a non-diamond king falls on the turn, and you shove, you have the possibility of it going fold-fold as it looks like JT.Any thoughts on this?
i think from what it sounds like about your villains your thinking way too hard. push you nut draws and your very strong hands very hard and go to value town on there asses. If Q high flush draw is out there i still push very hard but i keep i the back of my mind i may be dominated, thats all, not much changes. Its not as good of a draw but against idiot players we play it basically the same. if they happen to have it, oh well, but must of the time we are bending them over.
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  • 2 weeks later...

Obviously against these players you shouldn't be thinking about what your cards look like. I mean the guy called all his chips away with TPWK, he clearly isn't going to have a larger brain than a squirrel, and using 3rd level thinking against a squirrel isn't going to work.

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Shoving is badddddddd (initially)as you played it it's fine. call at first, try to get everyone in on the action for a huge pot, and when that didn't work out you got ~34% equity against two other players ai, great spot for a triple-up. hell even if they weren't so terrible, and you were up against A7/99 you'd still have >25% equity.

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