River Play

[suicideking 0]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (7 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comMP2 ($164.90)CO ($110.65)Button ($126.55)SB ($104.60)BB ($106.95)Hero (UTG) ($261.65)MP1 ($105.50)Preflop: Hero is UTG with K , 8 :club:Hero calls $1, MP1 bets $5, 5 folds, Hero calls $4Flop: ($11.50) 6 , 4 , Q (2 players)Hero checks, MP1 bets $7, Hero calls $7Turn: ($25.50) 2 (2 players)Hero checks, MP1 bets $20, Hero calls $20River: ($65.50) K (2 players)Hero checks, MP1 bets $30, Hero calls $30Total pot: $125.50 | Rake: $3I'm really only interested in river call opinions here so please disregard all other streets. I know. What do you think?

[rrumsey 0]

good line! where you hoping someone would say bet call river? i don't like that. I dont think we gain value by that. this line is great IMO, check call hitting top pair here is probably good but doesn't wanna be reraised. if he has a better K then oh well you lost the minimal amount, pot controlling river isn't a bad thing with a marginal hand

[Temporary Nuts 1]

Reads/stats on villain would be helpfulAs played your hand isn't much more than a bluff catcher despite rivering the highest pair, since villain is showing some pretty big strength here by not checking when most draws miss (other than 5-3). However, getting over 3:1 it's a must call vs an unknown.

[SCS 0]

I like c/f better unless you have a read that villain will play a missed draw this way (unlikely since you have 2 clubs and villain bet the turn in position), value bets Qx on the river or fires 3 barrels to bluff you off a missed draw.

[qnshustler 0]

I guess I'm with TN it's really just a pot odds thing at this point vs an unknown....but really, why are we in this hand?

[SwolyswoND 1]

I think you're getting value-owned here, but yeah getting 3:1 with no reads I guess you gotta call this time.

[rrumsey 0]

why are we getting value owned? KQ was beating us the whole way so asides from that, our check on river looks like we have given up and a beat hand could easily bet the river with the other Qx's that are floating around. We are so owned on this river if we had bet out and got raised, but the check induces hands that we now beat to bet river. Yah it isn't much more than a bluff catcher but we acted like the K didn't hit use, for all we know villain may think he is V-betting Q9, Q10, QJ,and QA. Why is that so out of the question. and still there is a long shot i know but the A high busted flush draw may be betting here. I don't think we are as owned as you think swolys. As far as bluff catchers go this isn't a bad one to see if we did catch him, and we are getting good odds to catch those bluffs so the don't have to be there every time. If we assume villain would raise sets before the river to protect against the flush draw we look half way decent to look up this river bet imo.

[NoBBiR 0]

You... limped K8s UTG?

[Temporary Nuts 1]

You... limped K8s UTG?

His opponent did and he's upset he called him off with K8 here

[SwolyswoND 1]

why are we getting value owned? KQ was beating us the whole way so asides from that, our check on river looks like we have given up and a beat hand could easily bet the river with the other Qx's that are floating around. We are so owned on this river if we had bet out and got raised, but the check induces hands that we now beat to bet river. Yah it isn't much more than a bluff catcher but we acted like the K didn't hit use, for all we know villain may think he is V-betting Q9, Q10, QJ,and QA. Why is that so out of the question. and still there is a long shot i know but the A high busted flush draw may be betting here. I don't think we are as owned as you think swolys. As far as bluff catchers go this isn't a bad one to see if we did catch him, and we are getting good odds to catch those bluffs so the don't have to be there every time. If we assume villain would raise sets before the river to protect against the flush draw we look half way decent to look up this river bet imo.

Value-owned means that villain is never betting worse and knows we will call with worse. Do you really think a villain is going to fire three barrels with Qx? Every draw missed and Hero has already checked. What would a villain be expecting us to call with (that is worse than his hand) if he holds Qx? We're almost always beat when villain triple barrels this, but as I said it's too good a price to not do it until we have a read.

[XXEddie 0]

His opponent did and he's upset he called him off with K8 here

This.OP is probably MP in this and has AQ or something similar and wants to be 100% sure villain is a donk. To THIS Hero's line though, IPITS with the except of the obv call preflop. I may even c/r the flop.

[SCS 0]

This.OP is probably MP in this and has AQ or something similar and wants to be 100% sure villain is a donk. To THIS Hero's line though, IPITS with the except of the obv call preflop. I may even c/r the flop.

If op is mp, he should be checking back the river with AQ.Hero in the hand should c/r the flop.

[Royal_Tour 0]

Reads/stats on villain would be helpfulAs played your hand isn't much more than a bluff catcher despite rivering the highest pair, since villain is showing some pretty big strength here by not checking when most draws miss (other than 5-3). However, getting over 3:1 it's a must call vs an unknown.

His opponent did and he's upset he called him off with K8 here

Temporary Nuts, I've been reading your replies lately on a lot of these threads, and I gotta say, i'm loving your game now. (hopefully you're playing as well as you're giving advice)

[Royal_Tour 0]

If op is mp, he should be checking back the river with AQ.Hero in the hand should c/r the flop.

first part is standard IMO.2nd part about hero c/r flop. is silly IMO. Thats more of a bluff than a semi-bluff. We have little reads so where do we get any FE from? *we re-open the betting and could potentially end up having villain re-popi dont like our hand enough to turn this into a huge inflated pot on nothing more than a FD with a K that may or may not be any good.

[DonkSlayer 1]

Fold turn without a read that villain is either bluffing or doing this with a 6, 4 or 77 often enough.

[suicideking 0]

I decided to wait for a few replies. Does how hard he plays TP/TK here change anything?PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comBB ($103.60)UTG ($100)UTG+1 ($114.30)MP1 ($100)MP2 ($103)MP3 ($102.75)Hero (CO) ($165.40)Button ($128.95)SB ($122.35)Preflop: Hero is CO with 8 , 8 5 folds, Hero bets $4, 1 fold, SB raises to $12, 1 fold, Hero calls $8Flop: ($25) 4 , A , 8 (2 players)SB bets $15, Hero calls $15Turn: ($55) 6 (2 players)SB bets $31, Hero calls $31River: ($117) 9 (2 players)SB bets $64.35 (All-In), Hero calls $64.35Total pot: $245.70 | Rake: $3Results:SB had K , A (one pair, Aces).Hero had 8 , 8 (three of a kind, eights).Outcome: Hero won $242.70

[Temporary Nuts 1]

That hand is also wow bad. Your opponent plays it perfectly imo. You, however, should be raising by the turn or something... personally I raise flop because hitting sets on A high flops in 3 bet pots is sooo money and slowplaying just allows bad cards to come off that slow people with A/Broadway. Call Call Call Call is just terrible imo.Also, this hand doesn't change anything and won't tell you how this board would get played... this is an ace high naked flop three bet pot... the other is just limped grossness that is a medium wet board. The dynamics of the betting and board are far more important in figuring out how an opponent plays postflop than his actual cards.

[Temporary Nuts 1]

Temporary Nuts, I've been reading your replies lately on a lot of these threads, and I gotta say, i'm loving your game now. (hopefully you're playing as well as you're giving advice)

I'm not lol breakevenexperimentationaments

[suicideking 0]

That hand is also wow bad. Your opponent plays it perfectly imo. You, however, should be raising by the turn or something... personally I raise flop because hitting sets on A high flops in 3 bet pots is sooo money and slowplaying just allows bad cards to come off that slow people with A/Broadway. Call Call Call Call is just terrible imo.Also, this hand doesn't change anything and won't tell you how this board would get played... this is an ace high naked flop three bet pot... the other is just limped grossness that is a medium wet board. The dynamics of the betting and board are far more important in figuring out how an opponent plays postflop than his actual cards.

I planned on raising the turn but when he led out again, it seemed evident to me that he was setting up the river for a shove, which I am calling. Is this thinking flawed? What draws/hands am I afraid of taking this line?

[suicideking 0]

Like if a Q hits river I may not get his stack in...him putting me on AQ? I'm not trying to be stupid here, I'm trying to learn these spots to improve them.

[Temporary Nuts 1]

I planned on raising the turn but when he led out again, it seemed evident to me that he was setting up the river for a shove, which I am calling. Is this thinking flawed? What draws/hands am I afraid of taking this line?

You're afraid of something like a Q or J hitting the turn or river and killing your actionYou don't always have to be afraid of being outdrawn to want to get the money in sooner rather than later

[suicideking 0]

You're afraid of something like a Q or J hitting the turn or river and killing your actionYou don't always have to be afraid of being outdrawn to want to get the money in sooner rather than later

Ok, I got that pretty quick when I thought about it. So if I raise him on the flop to say 40ish(right amount?) and he folds I can't be results oriented right? I'm thinking over the idea that I almost never want to go to showdown. Is that right? It's always better if they fold(except in spots like that where I virtually have the nuts)?

[Temporary Nuts 1]

Ok, I got that pretty quick when I thought about it. So if I raise him on the flop to say 40ish(right amount?) and he folds I can't be results oriented right? I'm thinking over the idea that I almost never want to go to showdown. Is that right? It's always better if they fold?

If he's folding either he's a total nit, in which case your cards don't even matter anymore and you should just raise every time.Or as in most cases when he folds, he's simply not got a big ace, in which case all calling does is add him another street on a potential 2 outer since he'll pretty much give up on the hand from this point anyway.

[Temporary Nuts 1]

Another point I'd like to add in is, if you're not raising this flop with a set what exactly are you raising it with? If you start playing against any opponents who can think at all you are now turning your hands face up against them

[trystero 0]

slowplaying w/ a set there is fine. the pot is 3-bet, stacks aren't that deep, we're in position, and the board is super dry.villain also played his hand fine.