Kk Early In Sng On Stars

[ScottK2001 0]

Early on in a $225 SNG on stars. I only played one hand thus far, and I hit a set of jacks, but it didn't go to showdown. Is there any way I can call here? If this was a $16 SNG, I think I'd call for sure, but given the stakes, I dunno...PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 225 Tournament, 10/20 Blinds (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comMP1 (t1500)MP2 (t1470)MP3 (t1470)CO (t1290)Button (t1570)SB (t1570)BB (t1500)Hero (UTG) (t1710)UTG+1 (t1420)Hero's M: 57.00Preflop: Hero is UTG with K , K Hero bets t60, UTG+1 calls t60, 4 folds, Button calls t60, SB calls t50, 1 foldFlop: (t260) 4 , 7 , 8 (4 players)SB checks, Hero bets t260, UTG+1 raises to t740, Button raises to t1510 (All-In), 1 fold. Hero ?????Total pot: t2000

[CoolHandKai 0]

Early on in a $225 SNG on stars. I only played one hand thus far, and I hit a set of jacks, but it didn't go to showdown. Is there any way I can call here? If this was a $16 SNG, I think I'd call for sure, but given the stakes, I dunno...

Yeah... I'd guess that the button has hit his set, so you'd have 3 outs against him. Not enough to call that crazy push. I agree that it might be a call at a lower buy in, but at these stakes, you have to give them credit that they know what they are doing.

[rrumsey 0]

Yeah... I'd guess that the button has hit his set, so you'd have 3 outs against him. Not enough to call that crazy push. I agree that it might be a call at a lower buy in, but at these stakes, you have to give them credit that they know what they are doing.

agree it sucks to fold but it seems button knows one of you guys has a huge and and is pushing a set here. Lucky it is extremely early so you have plenty left in the tank here to claw your way back

[Mercury69 3]

Yeah... I'd guess that the button has hit his set, so you'd have 3 outs against him. Not enough to call that crazy push. I agree that it might be a call at a lower buy in, but at these stakes, you have to give them credit that they know what they are doing.

This may be exactly what the shover is counting on...

[rrumsey 0]

This may be exactly what the shover is counting on...

you really think someone is going to airball shove in a $225? he has to have something here! if he is really that smart and has you that nailed on a range then well done sir but void of notes we fold here 99.9999999% of the time

[Mercury69 3]

you really think someone is going to airball shove in a $225? he has to have something here! if he is really that smart and has you that nailed on a range then well done sir but void of notes we fold here 99.9999999% of the time

Well, yes, top pair is beaten by a number of things, such as two pair, a set, a flopped straight. I'm simply saying that someone could be looking at AhKh for the flush or is feeling extra bluff frisky having hit top pair and a gutshot.I'm not necessarily advocating a call and I don't play these levels, but the donkage I see at the $50 range is surprising, to be honest. Lots of people are inclined to speculative shoves and even calls at that level, so why not here?The most telling evidence to advocate a fold would be the r/r/ai...I think even I can fold an overpair to major action from two others.

[rrumsey 0]

Well, yes, top pair is beaten by a number of things, such as two pair, a set, a flopped straight. I'm simply saying that someone could be looking at AhKh for the flush or is feeling extra bluff frisky having hit top pair and a gutshot.I'm not necessarily advocating a call and I don't play these levels, but the donkage I see at the $50 range is surprising, to be honest. Lots of people are inclined to speculative shoves and even calls at that level, so why not here?The most telling evidence to advocate a fold would be the r/r/ai...I think even I can fold an overpair to major action from two others.

1.) he could have a st8 and a flush draw in which case we are like about 50% but AA, and a set are also there, we don't have anything beaten badly and have to dodge a bunch of outs or hit a third K if that is the case. do you really wanna push in first level of a sit-and go when we think he "may" be going wild? not really. I mean most people bluff into weakness, he is bluffing into a lot of strength, i mean just doesn't seem that likely2.)i think he has put us or other guy on a hand, has a set and wants it in before he sees a flush and thinks that AA,KK, maybe even QQ would call. It seems simple and simple is usually right imo. If he has a set he see st8 and flush draws and doesn't wanna let them draw easily imo

[Mercury69 3]

Well, yes, top pair is beaten by a number of things, such as two pair, a set, a flopped straight. I'm simply saying that someone could be looking at AhKh for the flush or is feeling extra bluff frisky having hit top pair and a gutshot.I'm not necessarily advocating a call and I don't play these levels, but the donkage I see at the $50 range is surprising, to be honest. Lots of people are inclined to speculative shoves and even calls at that level, so why not here?The most telling evidence to advocate a fold would be the r/r/ai...I think even I can fold an overpair to major action from two others.

1) Yes, I know (see above)2) You're likely correctbtw, I appreciate this discussion. I hope I'm not coming across like a dick and if I am, it's not my intention... :-)

[rrumsey 0]

OR- yah missed that first time through and fixed it. i think the end point is still the same. if we had shown weakness and seen this i think we call all day but this is sick action.oh and yah i love the topic and i hope im not being a dick either. the great thing is we can both be right or both be wrong or any other combo, there is just no way to truly know what this dude was thinking if we folded, and hopeful that was a wish choice.

[Mercury69 3]

OR- yah missed that first time through and fixed it. i think the end point is still the same. if we had shown weakness and seen this i think we call all day but this is sick action.

Another good read, sir ;-)

[ScottK2001 0]

I appreciate the discussion--this is very helpful. Two other quick questions, and then I will reveal what I did, as well as raise the question of whether UTG+1 made the right play given his holding:1) Does the fact that I have the Kh, and therefore have a few extra backdoor outs if indeed someone else has a set, make any difference? Or does the possiblity of someone else having the nut flush draw make that a dangerous red herring?2) Did I lead out for too much on the flop?

[TrueAce13 18]

lol at the stakes making this a fold/call

[Mercury69 3]

1) Requiring running cards 5to make your hand is not optimal. As you say, someone could have the Ah. Also, sets have a few nasty redraws to boats...(minimum of 6 off the flop, up to 9 off the turn...)2) Pot sized bet on the flop can say a couple of different things, depending on the player, but I dont think it's a bad bet, given the str8 and flush possibilities. In fact, given the action, it looks more and more like your bet got you the info you needed to fold.

[Fade2241 0]

lol @ KK having 3 outs against a set. this is a pretty standard fold otf, someone has you beat or up against a big draw. buy-in has nothing to do with it as stated above, lol @ that too.

[ScottK2001 0]

lol @ KK having 3 outs against a set. this is a pretty standard fold otf, someone has you beat or up against a big draw. buy-in has nothing to do with it as stated above, lol @ that too.

Why does the buy-in not matter? I feel like in a cheapo SNG, I'm often seeing A8 go all-in on that board, as well as any overpair and whole lot of random draws.

[rrumsey 0]

Why does the buy-in not matter? I feel like in a cheapo SNG, I'm often seeing A8 go all-in on that board, as well as any overpair and whole lot of random draws.

your right buy in doesn't matter but the average player at that level does matter

[qnshustler 0]

I would also like to know why some feel the buy-in has no relevance whatsoever? In a $5 sng I think you can expect some TP/TK or medium flush draw or generally weaker holding making a move like this that would happen far less often in a buy-in as high as this one. I don't think I'm the best at explaining that but I think you guys are smart enough to figure out what I'm going for. I'm not even thinking its a huge difference, but if you would like to say that the buy-in is completely irrelevant to the skill level you should expect I would like to hear your reasoning because thats just silly.

[Luke00016 0]

This may be exactly what the shover is counting on...

I think that, in some cases, if you're facing an opponent who has you so clearly nailed on a range and is making an airball push with confidence that you'll read it through properly, then kudos to him. Mark him as a deep thinking, competent player and move on. At a certain point, you will have to accept that there are some bluffs you're simply not going to catch. Of course, if you see him do this multiple times in the next couple of rounds, that tells you a whole new story.Also, you're not hurting in chips at all at this point and have plenty of opportunity to pick better spots.

your right buy in doesn't matter but the average player at that level does matter

^ Agreed entirely. You'll find pretty bad players at any level, although they become less frequent higher up. Also, you'll find skilled players more commonly higher up. Ignore the buy-in amount, but don't ignore the fact that at higher stakes you're more likely to find quality players rather than awful ones.Finally, great conversation. I always love hearing people disagreeing, offering good reasons for their line of thought, and doing so in a friendly manner .

[rrumsey 0]

I think that, in some cases, if you're facing an opponent who has you so clearly nailed on a range and is making an airball push with confidence that you'll read it through properly, then kudos to him. Mark him as a deep thinking, competent player and move on. At a certain point, you will have to accept that there are some bluffs you're simply not going to catch. Of course, if you see him do this multiple times in the next couple of rounds, that tells you a whole new story.Also, you're not hurting in chips at all at this point and have plenty of opportunity to pick better spots.^ Agreed entirely. You'll find pretty bad players at any level, although they become less frequent higher up. Also, you'll find skilled players more commonly higher up. Ignore the buy-in amount, but don't ignore the fact that at higher stakes you're more likely to find quality players rather than awful ones.Finally, great conversation. I always love hearing people disagreeing, offering good reasons for their line of thought, and doing so in a friendly manner .

perfect! love it!

[outsider13 0]

Button has a set/straight here like 85% of the time, unless he's stacking off here with TT or JJ. AA/QQ would have def rr preflop, and JJ possibly too. I can't imagine you ever being ahead here too often, although I have made this call before.........because i has 2 kings.

[ScottK2001 0]

Thanks again for the good discussion. Even though the results are for the most part irrelevant, I ended up (reluctantly) calling and UTG+1 called as well. Turns out that the button had the set of 7's, and UTG+1 had 7d 8d for top two. I spiked the king on the turn and it held, but now I'm confident that it was the wrong play in the long-run.As a bit of a postscript, what about the play of UTG+1 there? I understand the RR with top two, but can he possibly fold to the button shove and my call, or is he committed at that point? I guess by holding 7-8 it makes it less likely that he's facing a set, so even though he'd have to float a lot of outs if he's up against a draw and an overpair, his call probably makes sense.

[qnshustler 0]

Thanks again for the good discussion. Even though the results are for the most part irrelevant, I ended up (reluctantly) calling and UTG+1 called as well. Turns out that the button had the set of 7's, and UTG+1 had 7d 8d for top two. I spiked the king on the turn and it held, but now I'm confident that it was the wrong play in the long-run.As a bit of a postscript, what about the play of UTG+1 there? I understand the RR with top two, but can he possibly fold to the button shove and my call, or is he committed at that point? I guess by holding 7-8 it makes it less likely that he's facing a set, so even though he'd have to float a lot of outs if he's up against a draw and an overpair, his call probably makes sense.

bravo And very bad play for utg+1, call is pretty much terrible IMO.

[rbakken2504 0]

Thanks again for the good discussion. Even though the results are for the most part irrelevant, I ended up (reluctantly) calling and UTG+1 called as well. Turns out that the button had the set of 7's, and UTG+1 had 7d 8d for top two. I spiked the king on the turn and it held, but now I'm confident that it was the wrong play in the long-run.As a bit of a postscript, what about the play of UTG+1 there? I understand the RR with top two, but can he possibly fold to the button shove and my call, or is he committed at that point? I guess by holding 7-8 it makes it less likely that he's facing a set, so even though he'd have to float a lot of outs if he's up against a draw and an overpair, his call probably makes sense.

From what ive experienced at the 215s....the bad players are just as plentiful up there as the 22s....you'll usually find 6 bad players at least in a 9 man sng at each limit, and that call of utg+1 is one example. Going over the 215s is where you'll find all the grinders and less fish, especially the turbos

[TrueAce13 18]

The reason the buyin doesn't matter is because at any stakes of poker, we need to be making the most +EV moves. In any stakes, this is prolly a really gross fold (though I will bet that everyone here woulda made the call in the situation). But i mean, look at the action, this does scream big hand b/c it is soooo early in the sng. If the buyin starts making your decisions for you, then you are playing too high and should lower. Even at $225 sngs, there are going to be players that suck. a lot.

[Fade2241 0]

The reason the buyin doesn't matter is because at any stakes of poker, we need to be making the most +EV moves. In any stakes, this is prolly a really gross fold (though I will bet that everyone here woulda made the call in the situation). But i mean, look at the action, this does scream big hand b/c it is soooo early in the sng. If the buyin starts making your decisions for you, then you are playing too high and should lower. Even at $225 sngs, there are going to be players that suck. a lot.

^^ this & i believe early this is a fold everytime.