melaskins 0 Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Starting stacks 4000. Blinds 300/600. The tourney started with about 40 people and we were down to 18. I had just doubled up to about 15K and got moved. The only player that I have information on at the table is MP+1. He is pretty active and seems to be a decent player. I had seen him raise preflop earlier with 79o from the sb after two limpers and win the hand with two pair. So I am UTG+1 with AKs. UTG has about 20K and raises to 1800. I call. MP raises all in for 2900. MP+1 has about 20K and calls. It folds around to UTG who tries to go all in. After some discussion with the floor boss, it is decided that he cannot go all in because of MP's previous all in. So UTG calls for 1100 more and I call for 1100 more. Pot is now 12,500. Flop comes 568 two in my suit. I have about 12K left. Check...Bet....or Push? Link to post Share on other sites
Sick Boy 0 Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 All in preflop. Link to post Share on other sites
SwolyswoND 1 Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Smooth call PF is fine with stack sizes as they are and with UTG opening. After the flop, I dont understand your question because UTG will be acting before you. We need to know what he does before we can support an action. Link to post Share on other sites
TrueAce13 18 Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Smooth call PF is fine with stack sizes as they are and with UTG opening. After the flop, I dont understand your question because UTG will be acting before you. We need to know what he does before we can support an action.When we are at tournaments where the average stack is like 26bbs, we have to be shoveling this allll day PF. We are ahead of his range like, alll the time, get it in. Win the flip or 70/30 and win the tournament. Flatting here is horrible Link to post Share on other sites
Fade2241 0 Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 agree with the aipf crowd as it most likely iso's us with the smaller ai. as played otf i am never folding so just get it in regardless of his action. Link to post Share on other sites
melaskins 0 Posted October 5, 2009 Author Share Posted October 5, 2009 Smooth call PF is fine with stack sizes as they are and with UTG opening. After the flop, I dont understand your question because UTG will be acting before you. We need to know what he does before we can support an action.UTG checked the flop.Here's my thinking on not shoving this pf. UTG's raise indicates he has a similar hand or better. He has a bigger stack than I do and I really don't want my tourney to end at this point with this hand. I gladly take increasing my stack by 30% if I hit the flop. If someone else raises behind me and then UTG goes all in, I probably fold this, knowing that I am behind and probably have a lot of my outs destroyed right now. If we get a huge pot going, there are a lot of flops that give me a great all in. After UTG's check, I may get to check this down with him and MP+1 and still win a big pot. I've already seen MP+1 have a overly wide range of hands that he likes to gamble with. He could very easily have KQs. I am doubting that he already has a straight. And he probably has a pckt pair.Right or wrong, there aren't many times that I am going to put my tourney on this hand in this situation preflop. Link to post Share on other sites
SwolyswoND 1 Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 As anyone who has followed me on this forum will know, I'm not going to reship 25 BB's here - which is the effective stack by the way Fade, both villains cover us.I'd be comfortable reshoving up to about 20 BB or so, but 25 just seems like it minimizes our value. UTG's range is going to be fairly strong, and we have position on him which is the important part. The stacks are even still big enough after the flop here that we can manuever post flop and will have FE on a flop shove.As played, OP, I shove this flop. You're almost never in big trouble here and he might even fold TT-QQ sometimes. Link to post Share on other sites
rrumsey 0 Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 agree with the aipf crowd as it most likely iso's us with the smaller ai. as played otf i am never folding so just get it in regardless of his action.agreed totally Link to post Share on other sites
Biff Goods 0 Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 UTG checked the flop.Here's my thinking on not shoving this pf. UTG's raise indicates he has a similar hand or better. He has a bigger stack than I do and I really don't want my tourney to end at this point with this hand. I gladly take increasing my stack by 30% if I hit the flop.If he has a similar hand than you and you hit the flop this does not guarantee you are gonna increase your stack by any %If someone else raises behind me and then UTG goes all in, I probably fold this, knowing that I am behind and probably have a lot of my outs destroyed right now. didn't you say UTG tried to raise all in but wasn't allowed to cause the previous all in was too small? By this reasoning you should have folded for the extra 1100 pf. If we get a huge pot going, there are a lot of flops that give me a great all in. After UTG's check, I may get to check this down with him and MP+1 and still win a big pot. I've already seen MP+1 have a overly wide range of hands that he likes to gamble with. by this reasoning as well as discussing his previous hand, doesn't this flop smack his range huge? Also he likes to raise even when weak so do you really think you are getting to a turn for free with him if he has anything that hit even close to this flop? He could very easily have KQs. I am doubting that he already has a straight. And he probably has a pckt pair.there are a lot more hands he could have given your description of his play. Hence the reason why you re-raise pf. I would even be ok with making a small raise.....say 4k to 5k and then calling a shove. Right or wrong, there aren't many times that I am going to put my tourney on this hand in this situation preflop.I understand the willingness to keep pots small in this situation but you have to realize you have a strong hand...in a bad position. Allowing a bunch of people to come in behind you by not being aggressive is bad news. Link to post Share on other sites
melaskins 0 Posted October 6, 2009 Author Share Posted October 6, 2009 "didn't you say UTG tried to raise all in but wasn't allowed to cause the previous all in was too small? By this reasoning you should have folded for the extra 1100 pf."When UTG tried to push, MP+1 was the one that made sure that it wasn't allowed. Which told me he wasn't real proud of his hand. If he would have had a big pckt pr. I don't think he would have said anything. After the flop, I didn't care what MP had. I needed to get a side pot going that I could recoup my losses if she won the main pot. While the discussion was going on about whether or not UTG could reshove, I had decided that if I hit a pair or a flush draw, I was going to push the flop.Because of my nut flush draw I did push. MP+1 called. UTG said, "well, I know I was ahead before the flop" and folded. I missed the flush and busted out. MP had 77 and MP+1 had 99 and made a straight. In these small tournaments, I almost always have a hand like this one that determines whether or not I get in the money. Poker is such a game of hindsight. Looking back, I should have pushed this preflop. MP is getting in regardless. MP+1 might have folded. I doubt it though. I just never like pushing this hand preflop from early position. I probably could have checked down with MP+1 but I just don't like giving somebody an opportunity to push me out when I have a draw. Link to post Share on other sites
Fade2241 0 Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 As anyone who has followed me on this forum will know, I'm not going to reship 25 BB's here - which is the effective stack by the way Fade, both villains cover us.I'd be comfortable reshoving up to about 20 BB or so, but 25 just seems like it minimizes our value. UTG's range is going to be fairly strong, and we have position on him which is the important part. The stacks are even still big enough after the flop here that we can manuever post flop and will have FE on a flop shove.As played, OP, I shove this flop. You're almost never in big trouble here and he might even fold TT-QQ sometimes.there are 3 villians actively in the hand, one being ai. i want to attempt to iso the smaller ai, that's why i shove. i know the other two in the hand have us covered but i want to put them to a decision pf and give them a chance to fold. QQ is never folding that flop btw imo, sometimes not even JJ. Link to post Share on other sites
TrueAce13 18 Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 "didn't you say UTG tried to raise all in but wasn't allowed to cause the previous all in was too small? By this reasoning you should have folded for the extra 1100 pf."When UTG tried to push, MP+1 was the one that made sure that it wasn't allowed. Which told me he wasn't real proud of his hand. If he would have had a big pckt pr. I don't think he would have said anything. After the flop, I didn't care what MP had. I needed to get a side pot going that I could recoup my losses if she won the main pot. While the discussion was going on about whether or not UTG could reshove, I had decided that if I hit a pair or a flush draw, I was going to push the flop.Because of my nut flush draw I did push. MP+1 called. UTG said, "well, I know I was ahead before the flop" and folded. I missed the flush and busted out. MP had 77 and MP+1 had 99 and made a straight. In these small tournaments, I almost always have a hand like this one that determines whether or not I get in the money. Poker is such a game of hindsight. Looking back, I should have pushed this preflop. MP is getting in regardless. MP+1 might have folded. I doubt it though. I just never like pushing this hand preflop from early position. I probably could have checked down with MP+1 but I just don't like giving somebody an opportunity to push me out when I have a draw.Thing is in this LOL horrible donkaments, we have to take advantage of our edges where ever we can find one. These tourneys play super horrible and super bad. when someone raises and you shove though, people do realize that their 77 is not going to be good and prolly will fold. I mean, it sucks to flip and we hate losing them, but this is just a chance we have to take down a pot PF and even if we do get called, we are prolly only getting one caller and we pick up equity. Link to post Share on other sites
rrumsey 0 Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 all in pre keeps us from making mistakes on the flop. it forces the other stacks that have you covered to fold basically everything but maybe KK and AA. isolate isolate isolate. AK s plays very well against one villain, not against a bunch of pot commited players on a good amount of flops thou Link to post Share on other sites
cdipierr 0 Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 +1 to the AIPF crowd. Who cares if it's 25BB. Given the structure in live $35 tournaments, it's going to be 12BB in about 5 minutes anyway. And more to the point, if we just call, we're going to get all the garbage small stacks coming along (as happened), whereas overshoving UTG will likely isolate us against him or pick up his raise if he fold. When he calls, he's going to call us with AQ/KQ/any pair a lot. We're fine against those. If he happens to have KK/AA, then play the next one. Link to post Share on other sites
wildspoke 2 Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 AIPF.I want to see all five and put the other players to the decision. Link to post Share on other sites
SwolyswoND 1 Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 all in pre keeps us from making mistakes on the flop....AK s plays very well against one villain, not against a bunch of pot commited players on a good amount of flops thouwat? Link to post Share on other sites
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