Who Would U Bet On Getting Deeper In A Nlhe Tourney, Hellmuth Or Ivey?

[Paul Brevard 0]

If you min raise with pocket aces allowing opponents to call u with suited connectors and flopping maybe two pair on flop, I don't think beginners are that good to fold Aces so easily, they will probably loose many chips in that spot, and btw they will never be sure wether they raise them cus they act as they are weak, or because they really have a a better hand. Small ball might effective when you stack is kinda small compared with the blinds, but in any other circunstance amateurs will go broke since small ball is a good way of trapping yourself.but anyway...

Small ball is the greatest thing a new player can try. You have to remember that Daniel teaches to play only certain hands in certain spots, so therefore you are learning to be patient and only play those hands. It gets you away from playing j-9 suited UTG just because it's your favorite hand. As far as the aces, it really matters on the size of the pot. The way I understood it from Daniel, was that say I have AA on the button and had a caller in early position. If he makes the call and on the flop he bets or even better check raises, I can fold the hand if the pot is out of control. Before he taught be small ball, I would have moved all in no matter what after the flop. He taught me that the game is about patience, discipline, and survival. There will be another hand. Now, if the guy only had 20% of my stack, I would probably move all in. If I lost, small ball will allow me to rebuild my stack. Short stacks suck with small ball. No way to play it. Now, saying that, I am 55% in tournaments, and 5-5 in $100 WSOP rebuy sats this year. The fields are 100 players or more. The starting stacks are $800 and double addon gives you another $2000. For some reason, and maybe Daniel could tell me why, I kill rebuy tournaments. The only thing I can reason is that after the rebuy is over, I am patient and the other guys have so much adrenaline that they are still making those marginal move ins and I can benefit from that. I have still had no large tournament success at all with Small Ball. Go figure. Anything under 150 players, I am in the money most of the time. Over 200, I completely suck! Four WSOP appearances and I was 20 from the money in the 6 man event, blown out early in Pot limit, about half through the field in the last $1500, and out around 11pm the first day of the Main Event. The reason people do not have success with Small Ball is because they get bored or they do exactly like you said, and get involved in pots that are way too large to manage. Then they blame Small Ball for their problems when they weren't playing small ball at all. So, from a guy with very little experience when he started using small ball, I would have to come to the conclusion that:1. It works extremely well in rebuys for some reason. I cash a huge percentage of the time for some reason.2. Deepstacks are great for them in smaller fields.3 I can't recommend a newbie to use it in the larger fields. This is probably due to a huge hole that I have in the game. I did hire a coach and that's when I went deep in the 6 man, so maybe it's just an adjustment I have to go through.I am definitely no Daniel, but I am an example of dumb butt newbie that has a little success with it, though not as much as I wish I could. I really need to log a lot more hours into the game to take it to the level most of the guys here are at.

[nutzbuster 7]

dumb butt?

[Tha_Sika 0]

Small ball is the greatest thing a new player can try. You have to remember that Daniel teaches to play only certain hands in certain spots, so therefore you are learning to be patient and only play those hands. It gets you away from playing j-9 suited UTG just because it's your favorite hand. As far as the aces, it really matters on the size of the pot. The way I understood it from Daniel, was that say I have AA on the button and had a caller in early position. If he makes the call and on the flop he bets or even better check raises, I can fold the hand if the pot is out of control. Before he taught be small ball, I would have moved all in no matter what after the flop. He taught me that the game is about patience, discipline, and survival. There will be another hand. Now, if the guy only had 20% of my stack, I would probably move all in. If I lost, small ball will allow me to rebuild my stack. Short stacks suck with small ball. No way to play it. Now, saying that, I am 55% in tournaments, and 5-5 in $100 WSOP rebuy sats this year. The fields are 100 players or more. The starting stacks are $800 and double addon gives you another $2000. For some reason, and maybe Daniel could tell me why, I kill rebuy tournaments. The only thing I can reason is that after the rebuy is over, I am patient and the other guys have so much adrenaline that they are still making those marginal move ins and I can benefit from that. I have still had no large tournament success at all with Small Ball. Go figure. Anything under 150 players, I am in the money most of the time. Over 200, I completely suck! Four WSOP appearances and I was 20 from the money in the 6 man event, blown out early in Pot limit, about half through the field in the last $1500, and out around 11pm the first day of the Main Event. The reason people do not have success with Small Ball is because they get bored or they do exactly like you said, and get involved in pots that are way too large to manage. Then they blame Small Ball for their problems when they weren't playing small ball at all. So, from a guy with very little experience when he started using small ball, I would have to come to the conclusion that:1. It works extremely well in rebuys for some reason. I cash a huge percentage of the time for some reason.2. Deepstacks are great for them in smaller fields.3 I can't recommend a newbie to use it in the larger fields. This is probably due to a huge hole that I have in the game. I did hire a coach and that's when I went deep in the 6 man, so maybe it's just an adjustment I have to go through.I am definitely no Daniel, but I am an example of dumb butt newbie that has a little success with it, though not as much as I wish I could. I really need to log a lot more hours into the game to take it to the level most of the guys here are at.

I haven't seen a single player that had success with the small ball. And I tell you one more thing, I really love those players who play Small Ball, cus they aren't dangerous players at all, they will let you play, they are quite predictable, and you know how to beat em with a couple of big raises. I wish there are many small ball players in my table all the time. And i can tell you a lot of players love to play against those who with a small ball approach. U cannot a win tournaments with a small ball strategy, u gotta play aggresively some times.Last thing, the fact that small ball knowledge has been so spread out makes it very easy for players who play against em to predict their moves and bets, since u know how they play. The most important stuff of a poker strategy is that at least your opponent don't know what r u playing and why u bet, raise or call.

[antistuff 0]

but every time he loseshttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKxSwfLKgIA...feature=relatedright buddy?

i need to believe that this guy makes these things tongue in cheek in order to not shoot myself in the head.

[antistuff 0]

If your a beginner up against superior opponents I would think small ball is not the best strategy, I mean if your playing a bunch of hands you need to be able to play well in a lot of spots and beginners are'nt going to do that.

i'm not so sure. if you really get down the mechanics of risking as little as possible for the most gain and take lots of little jabs in this fashion then even if your reading skills are weak this is probably still the way to go. i guess you do need to factor in how well they can read what you're doing, but it would take a pretty strong opponent to start raising you light and jabbing back at you with nothing. unless you are trying to run over the table most players wont even notice you as you slowly accumulate chips taking your well timed shots here and there.

[Paul Brevard 0]

dumb butt?

I'm trying to be easy on myself. If you'd seen how much of a donk I was when I went from chip leader in the 6 man WSOP event , to the rail in 30 minutes and an hour from the money, I should call myself a complete idiot and quit poker all together. I am still a complete newbie that can only play live daily tournaments. Still learning the switching gears thing for larger tournaments.As far as not being able to win tournaments with it, I disagree. People put small ball in a general subject line as though it's just small raises and fold.You're question was can new players find success with it. I just used myself as an example of someone that has done quite well in live daily tournaments, live 1/2, and smaller limit games. I just can't be an example of someone that has had success online or in large tournaments. I just finally had to realize that I profit close to home and if I want to play larger events, I need to send them a check and save my time. As a 40 year old player, I have to leave the larger fields and online play to you young guns. I just can't hang with guys like yall.So, in saying that, I would say that if you are a new player SB is a great way to learn the game. Ya gotta learn patience, discipline, and position when you are learning to walk. New players watch TV too much and think any ace is good and it's all about shoving your chips in when it hits. They think they are pros because "I watch that move on TV all the time!". Just like they think they know how Daniel, Phil, and others plays because they've watched the 100 or so hands he's been involved in on TV. You have to admit that you can thank TV for creating more donks than small ball.

[Paul Brevard 0]

but every time he loseshttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKxSwfLKgIA...feature=relatedright buddy?

That poor guy is insane. I think my dog just went deaf. Best comment was about what he should do with the harmonica.Yes, that guy is serious. When I was in the music business we had a guy actually audition with 'Amazing Grace' and sang a song he wrote right after it that had the words "Wif two big ball up agin her chin" right after it.

[silkyjonson 1]

i'm not so sure. if you really get down the mechanics of risking as little as possible for the most gain and take lots of little jabs in this fashion then even if your reading skills are weak this is probably still the way to go. i guess you do need to factor in how well they can read what you're doing, but it would take a pretty strong opponent to start raising you light and jabbing back at you with nothing. unless you are trying to run over the table most players wont even notice you as you slowly accumulate chips taking your well timed shots here and there.

Beginners don't take well timed shots they just take shots. Its a better strategy to just play fairly tight and play hands that are not going to put them into as many difficult decisions. If your playing alot of hands vs players that are better than you, its usually not going to end well. Although playing lots of hands may be the best strat for a player to learn the game faster and is a better long term deep stacked strategy from an immediate EV standpoint its not optimal for beginners imo.

[DCJ001 0]

If your a beginner up against superior opponents I would think small ball is not the best strategy, I mean if your playing a bunch of hands you need to be able to play well in a lot of spots and beginners are'nt going to do that.

Bet Sizing is Proportional to Skill Levelhttp://www.fcnp.com/index.php?option=com_c...a293df53cd63be9

[DanielNegreanu 141]

I haven't seen a single player that had success with the small ball. And I tell you one more thing, I really love those players who play Small Ball, cus they aren't dangerous players at all, they will let you play, they are quite predictable, and you know how to beat em with a couple of big raises. I wish there are many small ball players in my table all the time. And i can tell you a lot of players love to play against those who with a small ball approach. U cannot a win tournaments with a small ball strategy, u gotta play aggresively some times.Last thing, the fact that small ball knowledge has been so spread out makes it very easy for players who play against em to predict their moves and bets, since u know how they play. The most important stuff of a poker strategy is that at least your opponent don't know what r u playing and why u bet, raise or call.

This is completely wrong. 95% of the best deep stacked NL tournament players play... small ball. You CANNOT be a consistent winner if you don't both understand it, and use it. It's a must.

[Tehtoe 3]

This is completely wrong. 95% of the best deep stacked NL tournament players play... small ball. You CANNOT be a consistent winner if you don't both understand it, and use it. It's a must.

oh...

[Paul Brevard 0]

This is completely wrong. 95% of the best deep stacked NL tournament players play... small ball. You CANNOT be a consistent winner if you don't both understand it, and use it. It's a must.

Wuzup Kid?! Long time no see.The main thing here is the word "Understand". That is the problem. People don't give it a real chance and really don't know when they are playing someone that understands Small Ball. Small Ball for me wasn't really that hard to learn, but if you don't have patience and discipline you'll never fully understand grasp the concept and just give up without really playing it properly.

[Tha_Sika 0]

This is completely wrong. 95% of the best deep stacked NL tournament players play... small ball. You CANNOT be a consistent winner if you don't both understand it, and use it. It's a must.

'Playing Poker by Daniel Negreanu : Avoid small-ball in deep-stack games Tucson, Arizona | Published: 09.09.2008'I didnt say that. But it makes sense. Phil Hellmuth uses a small ball approach and he is probably the most successful player in tournaments which are not deep stacks, while Ivey who is probably the opposite playing style crushes deep stacks tournaments.

[DanielNegreanu 141]

'Playing Poker by Daniel Negreanu : Avoid small-ball in deep-stack games Tucson, Arizona | Published: 09.09.2008'I didnt say that. But it makes sense. Phil Hellmuth uses a small ball approach and he is probably the most successful player in tournaments which are not deep stacks, while Ivey who is probably the opposite playing style crushes deep stacks tournaments.

Ha! It's funny you bring up that title. I did NOT write the title of that column, the newspapers do. The column actually explains that small ball works well in deep stacked NLH and must be abandoned when the stacks are shallow. Oh, and btw, Ivey plays small ball. All great players do. Everyone tweaks it and veers from it to varying degrees, but the core principals of small ball are used by almost all of the best players. Elky, JC Tran, EDOG, etc... all small ball players.

[Suited_Up 2]

I think his point was about beginners trying to use small ball and not having the skill or the full grasp of how to do it.In that sense, I agree with him. Of course all those great players use it and win with it. I don't think he was attacking small ball, just that beginners don't use it well, mostly because they suck postflop.

[KingJames 11]

Well put, Kurt

[Tha_Sika 0]

Ha! It's funny you bring up that title. I did NOT write the title of that column, the newspapers do. The column actually explains that small ball works well in deep stacked NLH and must be abandoned when the stacks are shallow. Oh, and btw, Ivey plays small ball. All great players do. Everyone tweaks it and veers from it to varying degrees, but the core principals of small ball are used by almost all of the best players. Elky, JC Tran, EDOG, etc... all small ball players.

lol I guess we all play the core principals of small ball unless u make overbets post flop lol.But it's ok I give up Daniel, u got me.

[DanielNegreanu 141]

lol I guess we all play the core principals of small ball unless u make overbets post flop lol.But it's ok I give up Daniel, u got me.

No, that's not true. A lot of average players, who every once in a while do well, do a lot of re-raising before the flop in marginal spots. That is NOT small ball and that is why they usually come and go...

[Tha_Sika 0]

No, that's not true. A lot of average players, who every once in a while do well, do a lot of re-raising before the flop in marginal spots. That is NOT small ball and that is why they usually come and go...

I absolutely agree with u.But this might be one of the reasons why Hellmuth is so good and consistent?

[Paul Brevard 0]

'Playing Poker by Daniel Negreanu : Avoid small-ball in deep-stack games Tucson, Arizona | Published: 09.09.2008'I didnt say that. But it makes sense. Phil Hellmuth uses a small ball approach and he is probably the most successful player in tournaments which are not deep stacks, while Ivey who is probably the opposite playing style crushes deep stacks tournaments.

I think that your question was that small ballers can't win tournaments. "U cannot a win tournaments with a small ball strategy, "This article is talking about deep stack cash games."In a deep-stack cash game, however, that type of bet just wouldn't be big enough to have any chance at stealing blinds and antes." The point of small ball is not getting involved in large pots with marginal hands. It teaches the beginner not to shove all in with top pair on a bad board. Patience.

[KingJames 11]

"In a deep-stack cash game, however, that type of bet just wouldn't be big enough to have any chance at stealing blinds and antes."

In deep stack cash games you don't want to steal the blinds/antes... you want to win stacks, yo

[Paul Brevard 0]

I think his point was about beginners trying to use small ball and not having the skill or the full grasp of how to do it.In that sense, I agree with him. Of course all those great players use it and win with it. I don't think he was attacking small ball, just that beginners don't use it well, mostly because they suck postflop.

You are 100% correct sir. Guys watch the Small Ball vids without ever looking at the beginner vids and then get upset because they don't know what to do postflop. That's why you can't say Small Ball doesn't work when you don't know what it is in the first place. It's not as simple as having AQ on the button and making a 2.5 bet, hitting the queen and moving all in. Guys do that all the time, go broke and then say that they tried it but it doesn't work. I'm actually glad that it seems only a few really understand small ball. If they trully learn it, they will be better players faster because they play quite a few hands and see more flops, thus having to make decisions, but they are taught what to do after the flop and therefore are better players earlier in their poker life. What are the major problems that new guys have when they start playing poker?

[Paul Brevard 0]

In deep stack cash games you don't want to steal the blinds/antes... you want to win stacks, yo

Yeah, the thing being brought up was that Daniel wrote an article saying Small Ball wasn't the way to play deep stacks. We were talking about how it is a great tool to use in tournaments, not cash games. You want to steal the blinds and antes in tournaments and small ball is the way to do it without risking too much of your stack.