andersbranderud 0 Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 According to science our universe has a beginning (search at “age of the universe” on pnas.org) and time is purely physical. Therefore there can be no such thing as time external to the physical universe. Timespace has a beginning.It is a fundamental law of physics (causality) that every physical occurrence in the universe has a cause.The fundamental laws of physics then require a cause of the universe ex nihilo (since timespace has a beginning); i.e., a Prime Cause Singularity that is non-dimensional and independent of timespace.To conclude the above paragraphs:Fact: No thing nor event in the known universe or laws of physics lacks a cause.Assume: There is no Prime Cause (Creator / Singularity).Ergo: There is no universe.Fact: There is a universe.Therefore: the statement that was assumed is proven to be a false statement by reduction ad absurdum (proof by disproof).(Since "There is no Creator" is proven false, the opposite is true: There is a Creator.)Being logically consistent (orderly), our (to say perfectly-orderly would be a tautology) orderly universe must mirror its Prime Cause / Singularity-Creator—Who must be Orderly; i.e. Perfect. An orderly—"not capricious," as Einstein put it—Creator (also implying Just), therefore, necessarily had an Intelligent Purpose in creating this universe and us within it and, being Just and Orderly, necessarily placed an explanation, a "Life's Instruction Manual," within the reach of His subjects—humankind.It defies the orderliness (logic / mathematics) of both the universe and Perfection of its Creator to assert that humanity was (contrary to His Tor•âh′ , see below) without any means of rapproachment until millennia after the first couple in recorded history as well as millennia after Abraham, Moses and the prophets. Therefore, the Creator's "Life's Instruction Manual" has been available to man at least since the beginning of recorded history. The only enduring document of this kind is the Tor•âh′ —which, interestingly, translates to "Instruction" (not "law" as popularly alleged). (Source and further reading of how to relate to the Creator: netzarim.co.il)The fact that the Creator is perfect implies that He isn’t self-contradictory. Therefore any religion, and all religions contradicts each other (otherwise they would be identical), that contradicts Torah is the antithesis to the Creator.(The most common counter arguments are answered at bloganders.blogspot.com/search/label/counter%20arguments)Anders Branderud Link to post Share on other sites
JubilantLankyLad 1,957 Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 That's Banana(s) Link to post Share on other sites
brvheart 1,753 Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 According to science our universe has a beginning (search at “age of the universe” on pnas.org) and time is purely physical. Therefore there can be no such thing as time external to the physical universe. Timespace has a beginning.It is a fundamental law of physics (causality) that every physical occurrence in the universe has a cause.The fundamental laws of physics then require a cause of the universe ex nihilo (since timespace has a beginning); i.e., a Prime Cause Singularity that is non-dimensional and independent of timespace.To conclude the above paragraphs:Fact: No thing nor event in the known universe or laws of physics lacks a cause.Assume: There is no Prime Cause (Creator / Singularity).Ergo: There is no universe.Fact: There is a universe.Therefore: the statement that was assumed is proven to be a false statement by reduction ad absurdum (proof by disproof).(Since "There is no Creator" is proven false, the opposite is true: There is a Creator.)Being logically consistent (orderly), our (to say perfectly-orderly would be a tautology) orderly universe must mirror its Prime Cause / Singularity-Creator—Who must be Orderly; i.e. Perfect. An orderly—"not capricious," as Einstein put it—Creator (also implying Just), therefore, necessarily had an Intelligent Purpose in creating this universe and us within it and, being Just and Orderly, necessarily placed an explanation, a "Life's Instruction Manual," within the reach of His subjects—humankind.It defies the orderliness (logic / mathematics) of both the universe and Perfection of its Creator to assert that humanity was (contrary to His Tor•âh′ , see below) without any means of rapproachment until millennia after the first couple in recorded history as well as millennia after Abraham, Moses and the prophets. Therefore, the Creator's "Life's Instruction Manual" has been available to man at least since the beginning of recorded history. The only enduring document of this kind is the Tor•âh′ —which, interestingly, translates to "Instruction" (not "law" as popularly alleged). (Source and further reading of how to relate to the Creator: netzarim.co.il)The fact that the Creator is perfect implies that He isn’t self-contradictory. Therefore any religion, and all religions contradicts each other (otherwise they would be identical), that contradicts Torah is the antithesis to the Creator.(The most common counter arguments are answered at bloganders.blogspot.com/search/label/counter%20arguments)Anders BranderudI hope your ready to defend this stuff... because you're about to get all that you can handle. Link to post Share on other sites
speedz99 145 Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 I'm pretty sure his plan was to cut & paste the passage and never return. Link to post Share on other sites
SuitedAces21 2,722 Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 Fact: No thing nor event in the known universe or laws of physics lacks a cause.Assume: There is no Prime Cause (Creator / Singularity).Ergo: There is no universe.Fact: There is a universe.Therefore: the statement that was assumed is proven to be a false statement by reduction ad absurdum (proof by disproof).(Since "There is no Creator" is proven false, the opposite is true: There is a Creator.)this logic makes me want to hurt myself. Link to post Share on other sites
speedz99 145 Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 this logic makes me want to hurt myself.You'll be a happier person if you let logic like that just make you laugh. Link to post Share on other sites
Sal Paradise 57 Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 FINALLY! quantitative proof of Xenu! praise Him! Link to post Share on other sites
crowTrobot 2 Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 damn jewish swedes, confusing everybody : )http://www.netzarim.co.il/Shared/Testimoni...d,%20Anders.htm Link to post Share on other sites
crowTrobot 2 Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 It is a fundamental law of physics (causality) that every physical occurrence in the universe has a cause.false. you should put down the torah and study quantum mechanics. Link to post Share on other sites
vbnautilus 48 Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 I agree this seems like a copy/paste never-return. However, if you do return, OP, and show that you really intend to discuss this, I'd be happy to address it. Link to post Share on other sites
Balloon guy 158 Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 false. you should put down the torah and study quantum mechanics.Of course...many many things happen on thei own with no source or energy to influence it.Like uhh... you know..things and stuff. Link to post Share on other sites
Balloon guy 158 Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 I agree this seems like a copy/paste never-return. However, if you do return, OP, and show that you really intend to discuss this, I'd be happy to mock you through a popular game show format. Link to post Share on other sites
crowTrobot 2 Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 Of course...many many things happen on thei own with no source or energy to influence it.many things happen on the quantum scale that defy our intuitive notions of linear causation. Link to post Share on other sites
El Guapo 8 Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 That's Banana(s)B ANANAS- Gwen Link to post Share on other sites
Balloon guy 158 Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 many things happen on the quantum scale that defy our intuitive notions of linear causation.But since observation influences these happenings we still stuck with the reality that 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of the time, there is a causation for everything.Except the creation of brazillions of metric tons of matter and an incomperable amount of energy throughout the universe.Glad to see your worldview is based on such rock solid science Link to post Share on other sites
speedz99 145 Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 I don't understand what you mean by "quantum mechanics".Maybe we should add a new category in your Jeopardy game. Link to post Share on other sites
Balloon guy 158 Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 Maybe we should add a new category in your Jeopardy game.Dodge: an effort to distract from the problem presented while pretending you don't need to address the flaw in your argument Link to post Share on other sites
speedz99 145 Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 Dodge: an effort to distract from the problem presented while pretending you don't need to address the flaw in your argumentI don't understand quantum mechanics either. And it wasn't my argument. So...yeah. Link to post Share on other sites
Balloon guy 158 Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 I don't understand quantum mechanics either. And it wasn't my argument. So...yeah.Yea, I assumed we were talking about ...you know Link to post Share on other sites
speedz99 145 Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 Oh, I know.BEACH! Link to post Share on other sites
crowTrobot 2 Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 But since observation influences these happeningsstuff like virtual particle formation and quantum tunnelling go on whether we are observing or not. Glad to see your worldview is based on such rock solid sciencehas nothing to do with me. i was just pointing out that it is not an established fact that events thatoccur on the quantum scale require a linear cause in the sense the OP was talking about. for allwe know the big bang could have caused itself. we don't yet know what the nature of causationis on the quantum scale. we do know that simplistic human intuition isn't a reliable guide.that's just one of many flaws in the OP's reasoning. Link to post Share on other sites
vbnautilus 48 Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 The whole concept of cause and effect is based on the presumption that there are separate events in time. There aren't. Link to post Share on other sites
Balloon guy 158 Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 stuff like virtual particle formation and quantum tunnelling go on whether we are observing or not. has nothing to do with me. i was just pointing out that it is not an established fact that events thatoccur on the quantum scale require a linear cause in the sense the OP was talking about. for allwe know the big bang could have caused itself. we don't yet know what the nature of causationis on the quantum scale. we do know that simplistic human intuition isn't a reliable guide.that's just one of many flaws in my reasoning.fyp Link to post Share on other sites
Balloon guy 158 Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 The whole concept of cause and effect is based on the presumption that there are separate events in time. There aren't.So if there are no seperate events in time..the earth is exactly zero years old? And I thought I was a new earther... Link to post Share on other sites
crowTrobot 2 Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 fypwe know quantum events appear uncaused in the classical sense. we don't know why. those are facts.the OP's first cause argument assumes causation necessarily has to work classically for the big bang. that assumption is based on hisown intuition, not on evidence. Link to post Share on other sites
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