Random Football Observations

[SBriand 4]

That's the discount double check.

Ha! I could not remember the name they gave it in the commercial.

[GOCUBSGO 77]

Yes, Orton deserves it more. I don't know about Quinn, but as bad as Orton can be at times, he's much better than Tebow. That is simply your opinion and obviously one the Denver coaching staff disagrees with. I personally also think Orton is a slightly better QB than Tebow, Brady Quinn not so much, but that doesn't mean Tebow doesn't deserve his opportunity. I think my assistant manager would be a better fit than our current manager, but that doesn't mean our current manager doesn't deserve the job. It's just my personal belief the assistant makes work more enjoyable and helps things run more efficiently.No one is attacking Tebow as a person,t but yes, his play on the field is why they are mocking him, because he is comically bad. All of the Lion quotes were about how bad of a QB he is. And yes, they were clowning him with Tebowing, but you realize that they didn't invent that, right? That "Tebowing" has become a huge internet Meme, and a couple players thought it would be funny to Tebow Tebow after they sacked him. It's inmature, yes, but it's not some personal attack or something. It's just childish clowning. Players clown each other all the time. Mock each other. The shit football players say to each other on the field, it crosses so many different lines, this is just an extension of that. It's not mature, it's not nice, but it's not some travesty or outside the normal range of behavior of a young athlete.That's what I disagree with, I think some people are attacking him as a person. I'm not saying every negative comment, mocking gesture, or critical analysis is a personal attack on the man, because his on the field play definitely warrants a lot of it and I get that NFL players do this to each other, but what I am saying is that all of the negativity, hate, mocking, whatever you wanna call it is not all directed at Tim Tebow the football player. The fact that Tebow is struggling in the NFL is just fueling the fire of Tebow hate. I think you have two groups of people here. People that are laughing, criticizing, even mocking Tebow because he is struggling as a QB, and then you have people who are doing nothing but commenting, mocking, attacking Tebow as a person. How does any comments about Tebow's religious views have anything to do with him being a lousy QB? Again, I don't think you're viewing this from the atheletes eyes. You're sort of projecting why some of the fans insult him. I don't know what you do as a job, but how much respect would you have if someone at your work got promoted to a high profile management position who was grossly incompetent at their job? They are the nicest guy in the world, but they are comically bad at the job they are asked to do. Would you and your co-workers have respect for a guy like that, or would you make jokes about how incompetent he was and clown him?

I can't really argue with any of this. I am definitely talking more about fans now than I am NFL players (although not entirely). I also admit that I wouldn't have respect for a boss if he/she couldn't do the job well, and while I might joke about his/her inability to perform at the job, I would never mock a person for their religious beliefs, joking or not. I would also never intentionally make fun of someone that has a disability, or mock someone because they are a certain race or ethnicity. I have a sense of humor, but there are certain lines you don't cross. Is it acceptable for me to paint myself black, dress in baggy clothing, and go out for Halloween dressed as a black person? I would hope the answer is no. Even if I wouldn't mean it to be offensive and was just trying to get some laughs, that doesn't mean it would be appropriate and should be brushed off as so.

Two players Tebowed during the game. Tulloch after his sack. It was not a personal attack to some guys religion. It is what football players do. If someone sacks Rodgers and then does his belt dance is that a personal attack or does it only fall under a personal attack only when "religion" might be involved? I think that is the issue here. Because religion is involved people need to make it a bigger deal than it needs to be. Football players mock and trash talk all game long but since Tebow has decided to bring his religious crap onto the field of play it means that he now deserves special treatment? Give me a break.No it's not just religion. It's normal standards of our society. You don't make fun of people's religious beliefs, just like you don't mock them for being Chinese, or having autism. Do people make jokes like this all the time? Sure. It happens, comedians do it all the time. It happens among co-workers or groups of friends. But these celebrations were in front of a national audience, in what is supposed to be a league that is very concerned with their image.The second time a Lions player Tebowed was when Scheffler scored a TD. If you watched any other Lions game you would know that when Tony scores a TD he will do a endzone dance that mimics what the opposing team does or if they don;t have a set dance he does something that represents the opposing team. He and Nate have been doing it all season. So Tebow was not singled out at all. He did the Tebow and then the mile high salute. In TB he was a swashbuckling pirate. In KC he was a Indian dancing around the fire. etc etcAll I'm saying is that they crossed a line with mocking his religion regardless of what their previous endzone dances reflected. It's my own opinion but I know that lots of other people feel the same way.http://espn.go.com/espn/commentary/story/_...tim-tebow-faith^^ I'm not the greatest at debating on an internet forum, but this article pretty much sums up exactly how I feel about the whole situation, and definitely does a better job at presenting why it was offensive

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

That is simply your opinion and obviously one the Denver coaching staff disagrees with. I personally also think Orton is a slightly better QB than Tebow, Brady Quinn not so much, but that doesn't mean Tebow doesn't deserve his opportunity. I think my assistant manager would be a better fit than our current manager, but that doesn't mean our current manager doesn't deserve the job. It's just my personal belief the assistant makes work more enjoyable and helps things run more efficiently.

The Denver Coaching staff didn't disagree with me. If they did, Tebow would have started the season. Orton was obviously the quarterback they thought gave them the better chance of winning this season. Once winning ( this season) no longer became the priority, they benched Orton. There are basically two types of teams in the NFL. Teams that can make the playoffs, and teams that can't. Teams that are trying to make the playoffs, their focus has to be winning this season, so they should play the players that give them the best chance of winning, this season. Teams that can't make the playoffs, you have no such obligation to playing the best current players. Your focus should be winning in the future, not now. So you should bench players you don't think are part of your future in favor of players that might currently be worse than them, in hopes of developing them for the future. All benching Orton means is the broncos don't think he's their quarterback of the future, it doesn't mean they think Tebow is better than him. If Tebow gets benched in the next couple weeks for Quinn, you can safely assume they don't think Tebow is going to be part of that future either.Also, that's a bad comparison. Your current manager isn't grossly incompetent. Tebow is

That's what I disagree with, I think some people are attacking him as a person. I'm not saying every negative comment, mocking gesture, or critical analysis is a personal attack on the man, because his on the field play definitely warrants a lot of it and I get that NFL players do this to each other, but what I am saying is that all of the negativity, hate, mocking, whatever you wanna call it is not all directed at Tim Tebow the football player. The fact that Tebow is struggling in the NFL is just fueling the fire of Tebow hate. I think you have two groups of people here. People that are laughing, criticizing, even mocking Tebow because he is struggling as a QB, and then you have people who are doing nothing but commenting, mocking, attacking Tebow as a person. How does any comments about Tebow's religious views have anything to do with him being a lousy QB?

What NFL players are commenting about his religious views?

I can't really argue with any of this. I am definitely talking more about fans now than I am NFL players (although not entirely). I also admit that I wouldn't have respect for a boss if he/she couldn't do the job well, and while I might joke about his/her inability to perform at the job, I would never mock a person for their religious beliefs, joking or not. I would also never intentionally make fun of someone that has a disability, or mock someone because they are a certain race or ethnicity. I have a sense of humor, but there are certain lines you don't cross. Is it acceptable for me to paint myself black, dress in baggy clothing, and go out for Halloween dressed as a black person? I would hope the answer is no. Even if I wouldn't mean it to be offensive and was just trying to get some laughs, that doesn't mean it would be appropriate and should be brushed off as so.

I ask again, what NFL players are mocking Tebow's religious beliefs. I think you're ridiculously sensitive if you think people Tebowing is mocking his religious beliefs.

No it's not just religion. It's normal standards of our society. You don't make fun of people's religious beliefs, just like you don't mock them for being Chinese, or having autism. Do people make jokes like this all the time? Sure. It happens, comedians do it all the time. It happens among co-workers or groups of friends. But these celebrations were in front of a national audience, in what is supposed to be a league that is very concerned with their image.

What "normal standards" are you talking about? religion gets mocked all the time, by comedians, in print, in movies, in private. The biggest musical on broadway right now is "the book of Mormon", is one long mockery of religious belief. Being Chinese, having autism, those things aren't choices. Believing in Magic and praying to an invisible Wizard that there's exactly no proof of is a choice. People can have what ever irrational beliefs they want, but I fully reserve my right to mock them for it. If someone appears in commercials for an anti-abortion, anti-birth control, pro-gay rehabilitation, anti- evolution, anti-science, radically conservative religious organization like focus on the family, I reserve my right to mock them for it. If someone travels the world mutilating the genitals of 3rd world children in the name if his god, I reserve my right to mock them for it. And, according to Tebow's set of beliefs, I am a sinful, Satanically influenced person who's headed to hell, and it's his goal to transform my world view into his. I don't think that's "respecting" my beliefs. But again, that's not what these players were doing. I'd be willing to wager if you asked the players who Tebow'd what religion they are, they'd say christian. Tebow isn't being persecuted. Players were just joking around. No NFL players are attacking Tebows beliefs ( beliefs I think deserve to be attacked, btw). They just thought the Tebowing meme was funny ( and it is), and wanted to do it. That's all that it means. It's not an attack on tebow's world view, that's preposterous. From the article you quoted...

Tulloch and Scheffler probably didn't intend to disrespect Tebow's faith with their celebrations. But if Tebow were Muslim or Jewish, would Tulloch and Scheffler have been so quick to execute a prayer parody?

Which is an argument that I've heard a lot over the past few days. The problem with that, is that we in our society allow people of a group to make fun of that group. If Tulloch were jewish, and he sacked an orthodox jew quarterback ( suspend your disbelief for a moment) and then spun a dradle, no one would give a shit. And while I don't know if Tulloch and Scheffler are Christians or not, the overwhelming odds would be they would self-identify as Christians. So I don't think this is a very good point. Also, can you please stop making bolded comments inside of the stuff you quote. It makes your posts difficult to quote.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

Also, my contempt for Tebow's religious beliefs has nothing to do with what I think of him as a player. I can fully separate the art from the artist. Kurt Warner is one of my all time favorite football players, and you don't get more outspokenly religious than that. Michael Vick tortured animals, but he's the most exciting football player I've ever seen. I don't give any kind of a shit what a football player thinks, says or believes off the field, what kind of person they are ( other than to the extent what they say or believe can amuse me in interviews). I don't root for players because they are nice guys and I don't root against them because they are jerks. What I care about , is how they perform on the field. And I think Tebow is a lousy NFL quarterback. His lunatic religious beliefs don't make me root against him, and his niceness and charisma don't make me root for him. In fact, I would love to see him succeed, despite his gross inability to pass, because I think it would be absurd and funny, and this whole Tebow drama I find amusing so I would like to see it last as long as possible.

[Dread Aidan 8]

I don't root for players because they are nice guys and I don't root against them because they are jerks.

I don't root against guys because they are jerks, but I will root for guys who are nice.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

I don't root against guys because they are jerks, but I will root for guys who are nice.

Truth be told, I kind of root for guys that are jerks, because I think they are funny. Nice guys are usually boring. I'm a big TO fan. Ability to amuse me is the only off field character trait I care about in a player.

[GOCUBSGO 77]

The Denver Coaching staff didn't disagree with me. If they did, Tebow would have started the season. Orton was obviously the quarterback they thought gave them the better chance of winning this season. Once winning ( this season) no longer became the priority, they benched Orton. There are basically two types of teams in the NFL. Teams that can make the playoffs, and teams that can't. Teams that are trying to make the playoffs, their focus has to be winning this season, so they should play the players that give them the best chance of winning, this season. Teams that can't make the playoffs, you have no such obligation to playing the best current players. Your focus should be winning in the future, not now. So you should bench players you don't think are part of your future in favor of players that might currently be worse than them, in hopes of developing them for the future. All benching Orton means is the broncos don't think he's their quarterback of the future, it doesn't mean they think Tebow is better than him. If Tebow gets benched in the next couple weeks for Quinn, you can safely assume they don't think Tebow is going to be part of that future either.

The Broncos benched Orton in Week 5. No NFL team gives up on their season by week 5, especially a team that has a win. Yes you could argue that they wanted to see what Tebow could do for the future, but if they thought Orton gave them the best chance to win, they would have kept playing him beyond week 5 until it was a for sure thing they weren't making the playoffs.

Also, that's a bad comparison. Your current manager isn't grossly incompetent. Tebow is

That wasn't the point of the comparison. Your opinion is that Orton is the better QB, just like my opinion is that my assistant manager is a better manager, but that doesn't mean Tebow is undeserving of the starting spot, nor does it mean my current manager isn't deserving of his current position. The point was to highlight how you claim he has a position he doesn't deserve, but that claim is based off nothing but your opinion of the 2 QB's. And for the record, I agree also that Orton is a better QB.

What NFL players are commenting about his religious views?

None that I am aware of. In my last reply I did mention I'm talking about fans more than NFL players in terms of comments about religion. I am talking about NFL players in terms of mocking his religious views.

I ask again, what NFL players are mocking Tebow's religious beliefs. I think you're ridiculously sensitive if you think people Tebowing is mocking his religious beliefs.

Tulloch and Scheffler both did. I'm not overly sensitive, I just think that both players used extremely poor judgement when deciding to mock him on national television.

What "normal standards" are you talking about? religion gets mocked all the time, by comedians, in print, in movies, in private. The biggest musical on broadway right now is "the book of Mormon", is one long mockery of religious belief. Being Chinese, having autism, those things aren't choices. Believing in Magic and praying to an invisible Wizard that there's exactly no proof of is a choice. People can have what ever irrational beliefs they want, but I fully reserve my right to mock them for it. If someone appears in commercials for an anti-abortion, anti-birth control, pro-gay rehabilitation, anti- evolution, anti-science, radically conservative religious organization like focus on the family, I reserve my right to mock them for it. If someone travels the world mutilating the genitals of 3rd world children in the name if his god, I reserve my right to mock them for it. And, according to Tebow's set of beliefs, I am a sinful, Satanically influenced person who's headed to hell, and it's his goal to transform my world view into his. I don't think that's "respecting" my beliefs.

Please go to your place of work and find someone whose religious beliefs you don't agree with and then mock that person. See how they respond. Better yet, see how your employers respond when they learn about it. You can do whatever you want from the comfort of your own home, regardless of who agrees with it. I'm sure you will agree that "normal standards" is that you would never disrespect someone at your job by mocking their religion. Why should Tebow's job be any different? There is a double standard. We do allow these things to happen in the media, movies, etc, but that doesn't make them acceptable in social/work environments.

But again, that's not what these players were doing. I'd be willing to wager if you asked the players who Tebow'd what religion they are, they'd say christian. Tebow isn't being persecuted. Players were just joking around. No NFL players are attacking Tebows beliefs ( beliefs I think deserve to be attacked, btw). They just thought the Tebowing meme was funny ( and it is), and wanted to do it. That's all that it means. It's not an attack on tebow's world view, that's preposterous.

Just because they thought something was funny and didn't mean anything by it doesn't mean it wasn't offensive or in bad taste.

From the article you quoted...Which is an argument that I've heard a lot over the past few days. The problem with that, is that we in our society allow people of a group to make fun of that group. If Tulloch were jewish, and he sacked an orthodox jew quarterback ( suspend your disbelief for a moment) and then spun a dradle, no one would give a shit. And while I don't know if Tulloch and Scheffler are Christians or not, the overwhelming odds would be they would self-identify as Christians. So I don't think this is a very good point.

I get where you are going with this one, and maybe they were just having fun, but I still don't think it's acceptable even if you are from the same background/religion/race/gender/whatever. Just like I don't agree that it is acceptable for black people to call each other the N word even though they might not mean anything negative by it. It is still offensive and can be viewed that way by other black people. Maybe that was a bad comparison also, but do you see what I'm getting at? Just because they might identify as Christians doesn't mean we can brush it off and say "oh well, they are Christians too, so no harm done."

Also, can you please stop making bolded comments inside of the stuff you quote. It makes your posts difficult to quote.

Sure sorry took me a second to figure out how to quote it like I wanted. Also I think I agree with you on a lot more than you think, but I'm surprised that nobody else would find this offensive. Just trying to see if my own line of thinking is flawed.

[GOCUBSGO 77]

Truth be told, I kind of root for guys that are jerks, because I think they are funny. Nice guys are usually boring. I'm a big TO fan. Ability to amuse me is the only off field character trait I care about in a player.

I see why we disagree a lot I generally root for guys I believe to be nice guys. I will say though that its tough not to root for exciting players, even if they are jerks.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

The Broncos benched Orton in Week 5. No NFL team gives up on their season by week 5..

Preposterous. Teams do, and teams should. It should have been blatantly obvious that the broncos weren't going to make the playoffs after week five, and if the broncos installed Tebow because they really thought he was the Quarterback who gives them the best chance to win, well.. they are grossly incompetent.

That wasn't the point of the comparison. Your opinion is that Orton is the better QB..

It's an opinion I can back up with statistical truth, if you'd like.

Tulloch and Scheffler both did. I'm not overly sensitive, I just think that both players used extremely poor judgement when deciding to mock him on national television.

yeah, I do not agree that they did. They were mocking him not Christianity.

Please go to your place of work and find someone whose religious beliefs you don't agree with and then mock that person. See how they respond. Better yet, see how your employers respond when they learn about it. You can do whatever you want from the comfort of your own home, regardless of who agrees with it. I'm sure you will agree that "normal standards" is that you would never disrespect someone at your job by mocking their religion. Why should Tebow's job be any different? There is a double standard. We do allow these things to happen in the media, movies, etc, but that doesn't make them acceptable in social/work environments.

This is a terrible comparison. Comparing the NFL work environment to, well, any other work environment is preposterous. you know what else I couldn't do at work? I couldn't tell a competitor " Fuck you you fucking faggot" " I'm going to kill you, you cocksucking bitch" . I couldn't punch my competitors in the genitals and keep my job. I couldn't break my co-worker's jaw and keep my job. I couldn't tie up my new co worker to a pole and dump gatoraid, talcum powder and god knows what else on them, and keep my job. I couldn't do or say 10,000 things NFL players do and say to teammates and competitors. The type of verbal and physical assault that is accepted as normal in the nfl would be criminal in another work place. Compared to that, Tebowing seems rather benign to me.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

I see why we disagree a lot I generally root for guys I believe to be nice guys. I will say though that its tough not to root for exciting players, even if they are jerks.

Well, I just don't care if a guy is a jerk. Like Bonds. Everyone hated bonds. They didn't like how he was with the media. they didn't like that he was a jerk to team mates. You know how much I cared about that. Zero. I'm not the media. I'm not his team mates. I don't have to deal with what a jerk he was. IF I was a member of the giants training staff and he shit on me every day, I'd probably hate him. But I'm not. I'm a consumer of sports entertainment, and as a provider of sports entertainment Bonds was singularly spectacular. All of who he is or isn't off the field is just story telling narrative that I don't care about. This sort of thing bleeds into how I view the sports media. I hate most of it. Most commentators and analysts don't use facts, don't use logic and reason to back their opinions. They just try to find a narrative, so they have something to talk about. They try to tell at story. It might be true, it might not be, but then they have something to talk about, that doesn't require research or thought. They can't paint people as " bad guys" and "good guys" and "Winners" and "chokers" and all kinds of other ridiculous things and not tell you anything actually enlightening or interesting about the game. I think Rick Reily is the most extreme example of the "narrative" sports writer. He's always coming up with some angle or story that tugs on your heart strings, or inspires you or what ever. And I just don't care about any of that. Learning about some tragedy that some bench player on TCU overcame doesn't make me root for TCU. I don't watch sports for "storylines" or w/e. I think the drama of sports is compelling, on it's own. I think it's true drama, the only true drama that exists really. THe outcomes are uncertain. People can have compelling achievements and failures on the field. That's what I care about, that's what I find interesting. I root for great players to achieve greatness. I root for players that I think are overrated to fail and be exposed for being overrated. I was way ahead of the curve on hating Favre, not because I thought he was a jerk for sexually harassing someone, not because I was tired of the media attention he was getting or the torture he'd put teams through with his retirement talk. I hated him because I thought he was the most grossly overrated QB of all time, who's wreckless play hurt his team as often as it helped, and i hated how seemingly no one ( at the time) agreed with me or saw what I was talking about. I root for Cam Newton to be a champion because people doubted him for all kinds of irrational reasons, and I just want him to dominate the league right in the face of all the people that diminished his talent. That's how I find people to root for. I'm also biased strongly on players who have brought me fantasy glory, like Warner, Vick, and hopefully Newton.

[GOCUBSGO 77]

Preposterous. Teams do, and teams should. It should have been blatantly obvious that the broncos weren't going to make the playoffs after week five, and if the broncos installed Tebow because they really thought he was the Quarterback who gives them the best chance to win, well.. they are grossly incompetent.

I can promise you, no team gives up during Week 5. Fans, Analysts, and Teams have a pretty good idea where they stand after 5 weeks, but I assure you no NFL team starts making experimental changes at Week 5. They will at some point later on in the season, but to say teams throw in the towel because they looked bad for the first 4-5 weeks is just plain silly. Five teams that started 1-4 have went on to make the playoffs. The Eagles started 1-4 this season and have a good shot at making the playoffs after looking nothing short of pathetic for the first 5 weeks. Once again, I fully believe Orton is the better QB, but he wasn't getting it done. Tebow while being a horrific passer, has the capability of completing some passes while constantly being a threat as a rusher. As demonstrated by the Dolphins game, that was exactly the combination it took to win. And as for the Broncos being grossly incompetent...you do realize you are referring to the same organization that drafted the QB we are having this discussion about with the 25th pick in the first round, right? I think that speaks enough as to their overall competency.

It's an opinion I can back up with statistical truth, if you'd like.

Orton has a career completion percentage of 58.1% in 7 NFL seasons.Tebow has a career completion percentage of 48.1% in 2 NFL seasons.Orton has a rating of 79.4 while Tebow has a rating of 78.7Tebow already has 7 rushing TD's in 2 seasons while Orton has 3 for his career.Orton led the team to 1 win in 5 games this season while Tebow has lead the team to 1 win in 2 games this season.Now does Orton REALLY deserve the job that much more than Tebow based on any of this?

yeah, I do not agree that they did. They were mocking him not Christianity.

Maybe. Doesn't mean it was appropriate. We might as well throw this part of our debate out the window, because we are never going to agree that it could be interpreted as offensive.

This is a terrible comparison. Comparing the NFL work environment to, well, any other work environment is preposterous. you know what else I couldn't do at work? I couldn't tell a competitor " Fuck you you fucking faggot" " I'm going to kill you, you cocksucking bitch" . I couldn't punch my competitors in the genitals and keep my job. I couldn't break my co-worker's jaw and keep my job. I couldn't tie up my new co worker to a pole and dump gatoraid, talcum powder and god knows what else on them, and keep my job. I couldn't do or say 10,000 things NFL players do and say to teammates and competitors. The type of verbal and physical assault that is accepted as normal in the nfl would be criminal in another work place. Compared to that, Tebowing seems rather benign to me.

Most of those things can't be policed with any kind of success. What they can police is offensive celebrations, taunting, dirty play, late hits, etc. Clay Mathews was fined when he flipped off his teammates, because that could be viewed as offensive to some people.Well sir, I rest my case. You made a lot of valid points that I can't argue with, but as a fairly religious person who believes things like that are off limits during trash talking, etc, I found it rather sad that the Lions choose to poke fun at Tebow's faith, even though I know you don't see it that way It's the world we live in I guess.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

I can promise you, no team gives up during Week 5. Fans, Analysts, and Teams have a pretty good idea where they stand after 5 weeks, but I assure you no NFL team starts making experimental changes at Week 5. They will at some point later on in the season, but to say teams throw in the towel because they looked bad for the first 4-5 weeks is just plain silly. Five teams that started 1-4 have went on to make the playoffs. The Eagles started 1-4 this season and have a good shot at making the playoffs after looking nothing short of pathetic for the first 5 weeks.

The eagles didn't look "pathetic" the first 5 weeks. They lost two close games to the Falcons and 49ers, two likely playoff teams, and they were winning the giants game into the 4th quarter. Comparing the eagle's talent level to the broncos is a joke. I'll grant teams often aren't self aware about their own talent level, but I think with a new regime taking over the reigns at Denver, who wasn't particularly in love with their roster and is trying to figure out who their' guys" are, I think to be more likely to experiment for the future earlier than, say, coach in his 3rd season on the hot seat.

Once again, I fully believe Orton is the better QB, but he wasn't getting it done. Tebow while being a horrific passer, has the capability of completing some passes while constantly being a threat as a rusher. As demonstrated by the Dolphins game, that was exactly the combination it took to win. And as for the Broncos being grossly incompetent...

LOL the combination of skills needed to beat the Dolphins this season is a warm pulse and opposable thumbs

Orton has a career completion percentage of 58.1% in 7 NFL seasons.Tebow has a career completion percentage of 48.1% in 2 NFL seasons.Now does Orton REALLY deserve the job that much more than Tebow based on any of this?

Um.. you listed this like you thought their completetion percentages were like , compariable. Do you know how big of a difference 10 points is? do you know how terrible 48.1 is?

Most of those things can't be policed with any kind of success. What they can police is offensive celebrations, taunting, dirty play, late hits, etc. Clay Mathews was fined when he flipped off his teammates, because that could be viewed as offensive to some people.

Okay, but bowing your head in prayer isn't an offensive gesture. You can assume that he's doing it to mock Tebow, but if you flag or fine him for doing that act, you pretty much have to fine Tebow for doing it too. Either it's an offensive celebration or it's not, an offensive gesture or it's not. you can't make it okay for Tebow to do it, but not okay for someone else to do it. How can you prove that Mulloch was doing it to mock Tebow? how can you legislate sarcasm?

[brvheart 1,752]

This thread is giving me a headache.

[GOCUBSGO 77]

LOL the combination of skills needed to beat the Dolphins this season is a warm pulse and opposable thumbs

As true as this statement is, I don't think they come back to win with Orton in there. But who knows what kind of game it would have been if Orton played the whole thing.

Um.. you listed this like you thought their completetion percentages were like , compariable. Do you know how big of a difference 10 points is? do you know how terrible 48.1 is?

I simply listed the facts. They both have awful stats is the only thing that is comparable. Yes Tebow's percentage is 10 points lower which is a HUGE difference, but at the same time, 58% is not where you wanna be either. A good QB should have well over 60% completions. Probably closer to 65. Yes Tebow isn't going to complete as many passes, but he is also capable of rushing for big yardage and TD's where Orton is not. That can make a huge difference that can't really be measured. My question still stands. Does Orton REALLY deserve the starting QB job that much more than Tebow?

Okay, but bowing your head in prayer isn't an offensive gesture. You can assume that he's doing it to mock Tebow, but if you flag or fine him for doing that act, you pretty much have to fine Tebow for doing it too. Either it's an offensive celebration or it's not, an offensive gesture or it's not. you can't make it okay for Tebow to do it, but not okay for someone else to do it. How can you prove that Mulloch was doing it to mock Tebow? how can you legislate sarcasm?

I agree this will never be fined. Impossible and unfair to enforce. But I think we all know that Tulloch and Scheffler weren't doing this because they wanted to pray to God. And that is my point. It was mocking. Regardless if it was all for fun. It was offensive to a lot of people. I realize I'm probably the minority with this viewpoint, but I know I'm not the only one.Oh, and I didn't compare the Eagles talent level to that of the Broncos. Just saying they had a bad start, but didn't throw in the towel at week 5 to plan for the future because making the playoffs would be difficult. Nobody does that.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

Oh, and I didn't compare the Eagles talent level to that of the Broncos. Just saying they had a bad start, but didn't throw in the towel at week 5 to plan for the future because making the playoffs would be difficult. Nobody does that.

I don't think that's true. Talent level has everything to do with if you try and win this season or plan for the future. If your team is talented but under performing you still try to win now. If your team is just untalented, you plan for the future. Any rational team should do that. Many teams don't do that, because coaches are under a lot of pressure and can get fired if their team goes 2-14 or w/e. But Fox, in his first year, and Elway in his first year, I think the management is particularly secure.

I simply listed the facts. They both have awful stats is the only thing that is comparable. Yes Tebow's percentage is 10 points lower which is a HUGE difference, but at the same time, 58% is not where you wanna be either. A good QB should have well over 60% completions. Probably closer to 65.

Oh, I'm not saying Orton is a good quarterback, don't get me wrong. But 48% is abysmal and the gap between them is significant. Orton doesn't perform well enough to be the quarterback of the future, which is why I think it's fine to play him over Tebow. But I don't think Tebow gives them a better chance to win. His legs make him more valuable than if he was just a pocket passer, throwing for 48 percent. But he's not so valuable on the ground to make up for his gross inaccuracy.

[Suited_Up 2]

It's actually 46% now.Also, putting in Tebow is doing 2 things, neither of which was to win games.First, they're checking him out to make sure they really do need a new QB in the draft or offseason, which I'm sure they assumed already, but it's better to at least throw him out there and at least give him the miniscule chance he surprises them.Second, they're shutting up the idiot mouthbreathing fans who are putting up billboards because they are too blind to realize he's awful at football, so they're saying, fine, here... take a good look for yourself.

[SBriand 4]

I guess I am just too stupid to comprehend this.Player A sacks Aaron Rodgers and gets up and does the discount double check. Is that crossing the line since that action is Aaron Rodgers trademark move? If doing Tebow's trademark move is offensive than the above is offensive by comparison imo. But my guess is that since Teobow's move is religion based that makes it untouchable. And that goes back to my earlier point.It's one or the other, you can't mix and match.

[Dread Aidan 8]

Tebow praying isn't a move, it's him praying. That's why people consider it a personal attack. If Tebow did that after a TD or something, then it would be the same.

[SBriand 4]

Tebow praying isn't a move, it's him praying. That's why people consider it a personal attack. If Tebow did that after a TD or something, then it would be the same.

Does he not do it after a TD? I could have sworn he has. If I am mistaken then I will shut the eff up about it.*goes to youtube*

[SuitedAces21 2,722]

what does it matter if they were mocking his religion? his religion needs to be mocked. all religions need to be mocked and exposed for the nonsense they are.

[Dread Aidan 8]

Does he not do it after a TD? I could have sworn he has. If I am mistaken then I will shut the eff up about it.*goes to youtube*

Still looking?

what does it matter if they were mocking his religion? his religion needs to be mocked. all religions need to be mocked and exposed for the nonsense they are.

That's a different discussion, Aces. Has anybody in here mentioned Tebow's response?"I think he was just excited he made a good play, he got a sack, and good for him. He was just celebrating, having fun with his teammates, and I don't take offense to that."

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

Has anybody in here mentioned Tebow's response?"I think he was just excited he made a good play, he got a sack, and good for him. He was just celebrating, having fun with his teammates, and I don't take offense to that."

Tebow has a better sense of humor about it than hand wringing Christian fans do.

[SBriand 4]

Still looking?Has anybody in here mentioned Tebow's response?"I think he was just excited he made a good play, he got a sack, and good for him. He was just celebrating, having fun with his teammates, and I don't take offense to that."

I gave up after a bit. I only caught him doing it when the FG was good in the Miami game. I still don't agree but I will at least shut up about it.I was going to bring that up but I suspect a Tebow supporter would just say that "he was a being a nice Christian boy who doesn't want to stoop to their level."

[Suited_Up 2]

I'm not convinced Tebow wasn't lobotomized at some point.

[GOCUBSGO 77]

I don't think that's true. Talent level has everything to do with if you try and win this season or plan for the future. If your team is talented but under performing you still try to win now. If your team is just untalented, you plan for the future. Any rational team should do that. Many teams don't do that, because coaches are under a lot of pressure and can get fired if their team goes 2-14 or w/e. But Fox, in his first year, and Elway in his first year, I think the management is particularly secure.

I just don't agree that in the middle of a week 5 game, they said ok let's see if Tebow is going to be the future of the franchise even if we believe Orton gives us the best chance to win ball games right now. There are plenty of weeks left in the season where they can test out Tebow to see if he is the QB of the future. Why throw in the towel in week 5 as opposed to like week 10 or 11 where you still have plenty of time to evaluate him but aren't conceding the season so early? I mean I guess they could make a trade or claim someone from waivers, but I don't see that happening, so you can't do anything about the QB situation until next year anyways. I think you can plan for the future while still trying to competitive that early in the season.

Oh, I'm not saying Orton is a good quarterback, don't get me wrong. But 48% is abysmal and the gap between them is significant. Orton doesn't perform well enough to be the quarterback of the future, which is why I think it's fine to play him over Tebow. But I don't think Tebow gives them a better chance to win. His legs make him more valuable than if he was just a pocket passer, throwing for 48 percent. But he's not so valuable on the ground to make up for his gross inaccuracy.

I don't think Tebow gives them the best chance to win either, my whole argument was that both players are pretty bad, so saying Orton deserves the starting spot and Tebow doesn't is simply not true. If we are going strictly off of completion percentage then yes Orton deserves the spot and Tebow does not. But if you are looking at the whole package, I don't think you can say Tebow doesn't deserve the opportunity to start right now.