I Have This Raising Problem

[meservery 0]

PokerStars Pot-Limit Omaha, $0.25 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comBB ($39)UTG ($17.60)Hero (MP) ($27.65)CO ($12.60)Button ($43.05)SB ($21.85)Preflop: Hero is MP with 8 , 9 , 5 , 7 UTG bets $0.75, Hero raises to $2.60, 2 folds, SB calls $2.50, BB calls $2.35, UTG raises to $13, Hero raises to $27.65 (All-In)

[rrumsey 0]

Uhm this hand plays decent on some flops and i guess you where trying to isolate UTG but i don't like the 3-bet from the hijack to begin with i could fold this 50% of the time and maybe call and raise a few others for balance and balance only but we repopped all in with a medium strength drawing hand! This just seems so spewy. UTg is commited, and you may have one of the blinds along with you. Uhm this just seems like fancy overdone play for .10 .25 PLO IMO. This hand is much better for opening pot or squeezing IP and calling in the BB for a decent price that is about it as far as i am concerned. Unless im missing something huge here?!

[MNmiracleCJS 0]

PokerStars Pot-Limit Omaha, $0.25 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comBB ($39)UTG ($17.60)Hero (MP) ($27.65)CO ($12.60)Button ($43.05)SB ($21.85)Preflop: Hero is MP with 8 , 9 , 5 , 7 UTG bets $0.75, Hero raises to $2.60, 2 folds, SB calls $2.50, BB calls $2.35, UTG raises to $13, Hero raises to $27.65 (All-In)

can't say I absolutely hate this. UTG has AAxx like 90% of the time here assuming you can isolate you're pretty much a 40/60 dog and could be as good as a straight coinflip. Aslong as you're willing to gambool i think this is actually a profitable play. If you're going to call pre-flop here(after the 3-bet and 4-bet) you might as well ship. With that being said i think the 3-bet was unnecessary. But as played go ahead and ship it in and call "tails" IMO.

[surfbum4life 0]

"Uhm this hand plays decent on some flops and i guess you where trying to isolate UTG but i don't like the 3-bet from the hijack to begin with i could fold this 50% of the time and maybe call and raise a few others for balance and balance only but we repopped all in with a medium strength drawing hand!"There is no way you can ever ever ever justify folding this hand pf unless you are the nittiest of nits. I love the pf reraise, most people at these stakes are going to instantly put you on a hand along the lines of AAxx. Thus when a flop comes down that gives you a hand (and it'll be often huge with your holding) then you can bet small, almost acting scared of the flop, and they'll try to shove you off your supposed AAxx. The only issue is whether to shove all in or call when the UTG repops it for the 3rd raise. You know for a fact that he has AAxx so why put it in pf when you can call, see the flop, and dependent on the flop (as little as a pair is more than good enough to call on the flop) put the rest in. The only reason for shoving is to push out the SB & BB. However, the better players you have in the game the more often you'll find that they call you there because they have the proper equity most of the time against your range of hands.

[MNmiracleCJS 0]

At this point I feel like the rest of our stack is going in on the flop often enough where its worth it just to shove pre to atleast try to isolate. FWIW even if all 3 call I'm not really upset I'd just rather have a 40-50% shot of raking this pot heads-up. Or a 20-35% shot of raking a potentially 300-400 BB pot.

[rrumsey 0]

its a good hand but you honestly wanna shove a suited connector and a suited one gap preflop in small stakes multiway! I mean say it out loud! it is a great drawing hand but that is a pretty big gamble IMO. No hand is that powerful in plo as far as IMO i like to see a ton of flops heads up or cheap but maybe im just a total nitty old man i guess

[MNmiracleCJS 0]

I'm looking at it solely from a profitability stand point here we are anywhere from 40/60 to 50/50 with an AAxx depending on the XX. assuming we can get the other two to fold we'll have a total pot of $40.4 ((2.60 x 2)+(17.60 x2)) of which we've invested 17.60. Therefore we need roughly a 43% chance of winning this hand for it to be profitable. If we ship and both call behind us we need to be good roughly 30% of the time which we certainly wouldn't be tremendously under 30% but I don't wouldn't want the callers behind necessarily. I think the problem with this hand is the 3-bet in all honesty i know we all like to build a pot in PLO but the 3-bet lets this hand degrade to a point in which we are essentially deciding to ship on a coinflip. Is this optimal? No way, but the way this hands played out I think its the best available option.

[Frez 0]

Auto 3-bet, AINEC. NEVER EVER fold this rrumseyAnd when it comes back around with the overcallers, ship it. There's enough dead money out there to happily get it in 60/40, and you're more like 45/55/I play it all the same

[SwolyswoND 1]

NH, OP. I play it the same. Frez is spot on about this being an auto 3bet.Rumsey, this is never ever ever a fold and you should be 3betting, because then otherwise you can't really 3bet period or you will just turn your cards face up as being all Broadway. After UTG repops, the shove is mandatory because we have to iso and don't want one of the other players coming along with higher flush cards.

[SwolyswoND 1]

I think the problem with this hand is the 3-bet in all honesty i know we all like to build a pot in PLO but the 3-bet lets this hand degrade to a point in which we are essentially deciding to ship on a coinflip. Is this optimal? No way, but the way this hands played out I think its the best available option.

Yeah, with the dead money out there, this IS optimal. That's why variance is huge though in PLO... gotta live with it or play a different game

[rrumsey 0]

SwolyswoND"Rumsey, this is never ever ever a fold and you should be 3betting, because then otherwise you can't really 3bet period or you will just turn your cards face up as being all Broadway. After UTG repops, the shove is mandatory because we have to iso and don't want one of the other players coming along with higher flush cards."Its not the 3 bet i dont like totally, it is the ship into a commited player! I just see AAxx, KKxx, QQxx being what we are up against a decent amount of the time IMO unless UTG is just a gambling fool. I get that we have a good drawing hand but we could be crushed by a double suited high hand covering all of our flush outs leaving us hunting for a st8 or 2 pair. We just dont really know where we are and are simply hoping things go well. Im not taking 40% winning for my whole stack in a ring game PLo, almost nothing is truly this strong preflop i just see a ton of variance. I get what you guys are saying and it is well though out but i look at this and see us needing to have things go very well for us to win this hand and over say 100 times i expect us to lose 60ish 65 ish times out of 100, that isn't a play im willing to make against 25PLO players they just aren't ever folding enough! Normal $25 plo newbies will spew plenty of money when i have hands i don't wanna risk my stack this lightly but then again i hate having to buy in again at a ring game so maybe its just me being a nit.SwolyswoND"Yeah, with the dead money out there, this IS optimal. That's why variance is huge though in PLO... gotta live with it or play a different game"At 25plo were most newbs go broke with 2 pair a lot, i just don;t see the need to take high variance moves. If this was a mid stakes PLO hand or a live in person game, or if UTG was shorter, or we have built up such a tight image that we can cultivate it ( 25 games half the people probably don't even notice that) then i like it, but it is 25PLO and that is why im a nitt on this hand, not because the line doesnt have some merit, but because i think villains ranges beats us a lot, leaving us on the short end of variance after enough times. Its screams fancy play syndrome at 25plo to me

[SwolyswoND 1]

Its not the 3 bet i dont like totally, it is the ship into a commited player!

Why would you hate this? Youre obv not folding, and the committed player only has $4 left. You can't fold any flop for that price, so you have to shove to make sure neither of the other villains comes along and your equity goes way down.

SwolyswoNDIf this was a mid stakes PLO hand or a live in person game, or if UTG was shorter...

He is short at that point. He has $4 behind.

[rrumsey 0]

SwolyswoND "Why would you hate this? Youre obv not folding, and the committed player only has $4 left. You can't fold any flop for that price, so you have to shove to make sure neither of the other villains comes along and your equity goes way down."We are almost always behind ( UTG villain would not commit himself without at least a big pocket pair and possibly suited or double suited) and we can fold. To hell with pots odds we were trying to isolate preflop and got everything but that, this hand turned very south very quickly when UTG pushed. I agree flatting is out of the question totally but im suprised you don't fold this ever IMO folding>pushing>calling. It is close between a push and a fold, we are taking about 5-10% where we are almost splitting hairs with the math but that difference for me is huge when we are pushing preflop, so i don't think i can be talked out of the fold at least 50% of the time or more

[redhollywood 0]

I can see what rrumsey is saying but all things considered hands like A A x x, K K x x, and Q Q x x, aren't really that huge of favorites. I honestly would rather have the OP's hand. The rest of it was obviously going in on the flop so why not go ahead and shove here. I mean I don't fold this hand when UTG raises to $13 and I only call if the stacks are a lot deeper. Seeing as the stacks are smaller and there is only $4 left in UTG's stack I think shoving is the best idea. Also at theses lower limits I see a lot of players 4 betting with marginal hands just becuase they have one A or K in them. We are assuming that this player isn't one who thinks every omaha hand is a good one and thus worth raising with. Of course the OP would have a better read on that since he was playing with the guy.

[BaseJester 1]

I just see AAxx, KKxx, QQxx being what we are up against a decent amount of the time IMO unless UTG is just a gambling fool.

I don't think there's a meaningful category of "big pairs" in PLO. I divide those 3 hands into AAxx and hands I can flop top set with.

[SwolyswoND 1]

Rumsey, even if the UTG has a big pair, we are like no less than a 55-45 dog, maybe 60-40 and because of the dead money in the pot, we want to get it in with those odds.

[redhollywood 0]

Rumsey, even if the UTG has a big pair, we are like no less than a 55-45 dog, maybe 60-40 and because of the dead money in the pot, we want to get it in with those odds.

agreed

[rrumsey 0]

Rumsey, even if the UTG has a big pair, we are like no less than a 55-45 dog, maybe 60-40 and because of the dead money in the pot, we want to get it in with those odds.

I see your reasoning. i guess im unsettled about pushing truly almost any preflop in PLO and i have never in my somewhat decent 1 month stent of a plo life have had to do anything like this. I have only played PLO in mixed HA games or heads up so i guess a regular ring game is differnent but i just get the chills from this hand. I must be a nit for you guys but i like the post flop aspect of plo a lot more then pre, so much could happen. That why i don't play PLO anymore too much craziness for me. you are slowly talking me down from my intial never calling here though so idk. I do trust your opinions from what i have seen from you so i must be kind of wrong here but i guess my nervousness is somewhat understandable

[meservery 0]

My position is horrible for this 3 bet pre. I would obv much rather be in the CO or button for this. But when they both fold behind me i'm thrilled. Now the SB should fold 100% of the time unless he has an absolute monster, QJT9 double suited or something. He should even fold KKxx. He calls. At this point the BB should now call to have position on the horrible player in the SB.Now the problem for me becomes the UTG can fire a huge pot committing raise and his hand is super obvious. But I cant fold now with all that dead money in the pot. So ship and pray.Now imagine if the SB and BB had folded (like they should have). When the UTG re-pops, I just call and play postflop. UTG should have AAxx a great percentage of the time and is playing his hand face up. If I flop bottom pair I'm trying to get all the money in on the flop. He either folds. Or I suck out.

[redhollywood 0]

i don't like to get all my money in preflop in omaha either but in this case I think it was the right play. NO hands are major favorites preflop in omaha. I just think because of the stack sizes and the way this played out the correct play was to go ahead and shove. I hoped the hand worked out for you OP.