Is This A River Bluff?

[Frez 0]

PokerStars Pot-Limit Omaha, $1.00 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comButton ($67.25)SB ($40)BB ($117.40)UTG ($59.75)MP ($37.70)Frez (CO) ($98.50)Preflop: Frez is CO with 4, 6, 3, 7UTG calls $1, MP calls $1, Frez calls $1, Button calls $1, SB calls $0.50, BB bets $7, UTG calls $6, MP calls $6, Frez calls $6, Button calls $6, 1 foldFlop: ($36) 8, 10, 6(5 players)BB checks, UTG checks, MP checks, Frez checks, Button checksTurn: ($36) 9(5 players)BB checks, UTG checks, MP checks, Frez checks, Button checksRiver: ($36) 5(5 players)BB bets $25, 2 folds, Frez ???With this many people in the hand if someone had something they would have bet sooner? Can I pick off two pair or even something like 666 here?

[BaseJester 1]

I think this is more likely to be air than two pair looking for value with a bet of that size.I think he just missed his check raise on the turn. It's a fold given the number of players in the hand, imho.

[Frez 0]

I think this is more likely to be air than two pair looking for value with a bet of that size.

I find this a little confusing. If air is more likely than two pair, and I beat both, why wouldn't I call.

I think he just missed his check raise on the turn. It's a fold given the number of players in the hand, imho.

There's only one person left to act...

[rrumsey 0]

we are only losing to J7 and JQ right. we almost surely have the best hand so the question is call or raise. BB could have an overpair or 2 pair or a set possibly so i raise and possibly call a shove. I mean the only bad part of this hand is your none played cards gives less cards for villain to have

[BaseJester 1]

I find this a little confusing. If air is more likely than two pair, and I beat both, why wouldn't I call.

I was trying to say that his range is smaller because he can't really expect to bet two-pair for value in this circumstance. It's usually either a straight or a stone bluff.

[BaseJester 1]

There's only one person left to act...

When the villain bets, he bets into 4 players who have not yet acted, which implies strength.

[rrumsey 0]

I was trying to say that his range is smaller because he can't really expect to bet two-pair for value in this circumstance. It's usually either a straight or a stone bluff.

i kind of think it was an AA or KK trying to steal the pot ( or maybe he though he had the best hand). idk why he ever raised until river. maybe he was just lost in this hand i think we have the best hand a lot here

[BaseJester 1]

i kind of think it was an AA or KK trying to steal the pot ( or maybe he though he had the best hand). idk why he ever raised until river. maybe he was just lost in this hand i think we have the best hand a lot here

One pair in this hand is air. You could talk me into a call, but I think raising here is burning money. I wouldn't expect a call from less than a straight to the ten. On the other hand, you might knock out a hand that you're splitting with occasionally.

[rrumsey 0]

i guess call is safe it doesn't require villain to misplay his hand to make our hand profitable. I wish i could say raise still for some reason but im starting to like a call more and more

[MNmiracleCJS 0]

whoa whoa I don't think we can ever raise profitably here I can see a call, but for me to do that I'd have to be sitting at the table for awhile i think. screams a value bet IMO id say alot of QJXXs possibly even KQJx are in the preflop ranges. Once they hit the nuts on the turn theres no reason to bet because of the rainbow unpaired board.(especially true if they have the KQJ) so why not check and show weakness and perhaps get paid off by a set or a lesser straight on the river.I fold no reason not to when you've only invested $7 here I just dont think were ahead enough of the time. It may be a river bluff and if so good for him.

[SwolyswoND 1]

I am never ever ever calling this when the player first to act bets into four opponents. I think BaseJester hit it perfect, this guy probably backed into his straight into the turn, and thinking that one of four other people in the hand had to have some piece of it, went for a check-raise and it whiffed. The bet sizing tells a lot here.Heads-up this is an instacall, three-way you could talk me into it, 5ways i am folding on a board that wet without the nuts.

[SwolyswoND 1]

I fold no reason not to when you've only invested $7 here I just dont think were ahead enough of the time. It may be a river bluff and if so good for him.

Your conclusion is correct, IMO, but this is not a valid reason to reach that conclusion. How much we have invested should not and does not affect our decision on any later street. That money is already gone, and we just make the most +EV decision we can at each point.

[MaxStPolish 4]

whoa whoa I don't think we can ever raise profitably here I can see a call, but for me to do that I'd have to be sitting at the table for awhile i think. screams a value bet IMO id say alot of QJXXs possibly even KQJx are in the preflop ranges. Once they hit the nuts on the turn theres no reason to bet because of the rainbow unpaired board.(especially true if they have the KQJ) so why not check and show weakness and perhaps get paid off by a set or a lesser straight on the river.I fold no reason not to when you've only invested $7 here I just dont think were ahead enough of the time. It may be a river bluff and if so good for him.

This was my EXACT thought, including the "whoa whoa" to start it, as i was literally saying that in my head as well.There's a fair chance there another straight to the T that feels he's good here betting now that the river blanked. I highly doubt he's on air here, but if so congrats to him. In the right circumstance you could call here......but IMO it's rare because you are calling with like a 5% chance of scooping pot, 35% chance of chopping, and 60% chance of losing to the better straight, or something somewhat like that. The bettor, even if just with a T high straight is in the drivers' seat as he's the one now leading out with a strong value bet. A call here is really a crying call for the most part, and probably -EV without any sort of other table info.

[MaxStPolish 4]

Your conclusion is correct, IMO, but this is not a valid reason to reach that conclusion. How much we have invested should not and does not affect our decision on any later street. That money is already gone, and we just make the most +EV decision we can at each point.

I totally thought this too. At least it seems my thoughts are founded and clear right now, lol.

[Shark527 0]

I am never ever ever calling this when the player first to act bets into four opponents.

on the river without even second nuts

[Frez 0]

Your conclusion is correct, IMO, but this is not a valid reason to reach that conclusion. How much we have invested should not and does not affect our decision on any later street. That money is already gone, and we just make the most +EV decision we can at each point.

Ya, the decision is, when faced with the river pot bet - are we good more than one third of the time? Or good 30% of the time and splitting 20% of the time... What we put in earlier is not relevant at all.

[SwolyswoND 1]

No, Frez, I don't think we are. When we are holding the third nuts in PLO and villain bets first to act into 4 opponents, he is going to have us beat wayyyy more than 2 out of 3 times.

[meservery 0]

Any read on the BB. Do you think we was capable of raising a run-down type hand preflop? If not he has to have exactly AAQJ. Do you play a lot with this player? Do you play a crap load of hands. If some of these are "yes" i would call for information on the end.

[surfbum4life 0]

I'm going to agree that he has air (one pair, AAxx, something along those lines) more often than two pair/trips. If he's half way decent then he's going to check, maybe check call those hands because they have good show down value if everyone checks down then he'll probably be good. So it's far more likely to be air than two pair/trips. Thus you can never ever ever raise on the river.That being said though, the % of times that he doesn't have a higher straight is very very low. He leads into 4 players on the river of a RAINBOW board reading 8T695... You were thinking there is a chance the you're chopping. What is he raising from the BB with that contains a 7x? He is far more likely to have something along the lines of TJQK which he'd check on the flop because he'd whiff and hope its checked around so he can hit his 9. It makes sense with the line, check on the turn hoping to check raise anyone willing to bet. His raise pf dictates a larger range holding JQxx rather than 7x(6-10). His check on the flop is consistent with 90% of his hands. The turn is consistent with a made straight, some players will lead out but chances are with 4 callers that someone has hit trips/lower straight so he'd rather check shove. River is again consistent with the made straight on the turn, hoping someone will pay him off thinking he whiffed and is trying to buy the pot. Personally, unless you have some damn good notes on him that suggest otherwise then I'm folding 100% of the time. I like the comments about how you may want to call for meta game reasons if you play with him a lot.

[RISEorFall 0]

i dont get the "he would never bet less than a nut straight here" thought process. if he did make the nuts on the turn, there is no reason to think someone will bet so he can c/r. nobody bet the flop, why do we think someone will bet the turn? because there's a lot of people in the pot? there is a lot of people in the pot on the flop too. and after the flop check someone might put him on AA or KK and raise with a second best straight/set. and after the turn checks through, he might think his JJTT or AAT9ss or something is good. after all, if someone had something better, they wouldve bet the turn, right?i dont know if he has one of these kinda hands enough times to call the bet, but i think they should be included in his range, as i think they make sense with the betting pattern.

[redhollywood 0]

I have to agree with the people that say the correct play here is to fold unless you have a great read on the guy and think he is betting her with just A-A-x-x or K K x x. Although hands like A A J Q or K K J 7 are very real possiblities. If anything the most you can do is call, raising here would be a very bad play IMO. If he has air that is a hell of a ballsy bluff on the river with 4 people to act behind you. In the long run I see folding being a lot more profitable for you.

[Frez 0]

Well, I was absolutely correct in feeling that the BB was donking the river with something less than the nuts...PokerStars Pot-Limit Omaha, $1.00 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comButton ($67.25)SB ($40)BB ($117.40)UTG ($59.75)MP ($37.70)Hero (CO) ($98.50)Preflop: Hero is CO with 4, 6, 3, 7UTG calls $1, MP calls $1, Hero calls $1, Button calls $1, SB calls $0.50, BB bets $7, UTG calls $6, MP calls $6, Hero calls $6, Button calls $6, 1 foldFlop: ($36) 8, 10, 6(5 players)BB checks, UTG checks, MP checks, Hero checks, Button checksTurn: ($36) 9(5 players)BB checks, UTG checks, MP checks, Hero checks, Button checksRiver: ($36) 5(5 players)BB bets $25, 2 folds, Hero calls $25, Button raises to $50, BB folds, Hero pukes

[SwolyswoND 1]

Good Lord, BTN played that terrible no matter what he's holding. I don't see any way you can call this though.